Is Waternoose the "bad guy" in Monsters Inc?

Pixar's Feature Films Monsters, Inc. / University
#21

I am very content with the results of the poll and glad the majority see the light and truth of the matter :smiley:

A little note about Waternoose…or rather…the Waternoose line.
The Waternooses are already a wealthy bunch. And there have been three generations of them. Two, at the least, at the lead of Monsters Inc. in the CEO department. Waternoose are also, strangely, given a long lifespan. Henry, the one we see, took up Monsters Inc. from his father…“at the tender age of 142”.
Henry, as a boy, was also highly educated in an Ivy League School. Having a wealthy NAME, Henry got what he wanted. He HAD what he wanted. When he took over Monsters Inc., he aimed to KEEP it out of pride and desire. The Waternooses had kept it for generations. Henry was NOT aiming to be the one to lose it.
When you have rich boy with power in his hand, most of the time, they won’t let anyone else take it from them.
Waternoose showed no regret in his actions, even cursing Sullivan and Wazowski (well not literally) as he was hauled off. (on a note, this is opposite of Randall who was pleading for the two “heroes” to listen to him, but nah they didn’t of course).
Of course, given Waternoose’s connections, family name, and wealth, he’ll probably get out of it all.

#22

I’ll say what I just said to my friend today when we were discussing our coughobsessionscough

Speaking as a huge fan of villains in general, I can say that Randall would make a cooler villain than Waternoose, simply because … well, he looks cool. The sad fact of the matter (for villain lovers) is that he’s just a minion, if anything, and the main villain of the story isn’t so cool-looking but is in fact just some crabby old crab monster.

I hope that made sense. If not I’m sorry. I just got back from my class (that ended at 9 pm) in other words, I am tired and don’t know what I’m doing here. :laughing:

#23

So essentially you think Randall’s hot? :laughing:

#24

Cool, Sean. I said cool! :laughing:

Although yes, I’m sure it’s pretty obvious that I find him attractive, but that’s besides the point - I’m stepping outside the box and dropping some of my biases … some. :wink:

#25

To define whether one is ‘evil’ or not is a very gray matter, IMO. What makes one ‘evil?’ Just because he does things that harm others and benefits himself? Or as the people who made up the term through their own theorized philosophy labeled as ‘selfish.’

So what makes one a ‘good guy’ then? By performing good deeds that benefit other people (before gaining benefits and popularity himself in the end anyway)?

Sure, Waternoose might have been demented or… crazy, or the such, but he just didn’t really seem like an evil villain to me. I have my share of evil villains before, and trust me; they are bombastically evil alright. Twisted, sick, capable of destroying one’s soul by just staring at him. Waternoose, however? Sure, he aimed to take over the company by being the best, even at the expanse of… others. Nevertheless, let’s not forget how people in our world reacts with this kind of situation.

People wanting to take over other countries wage war with them. Are they considered ‘evil?’ Cows and sheeps are slaughtered by farmers and the like excessively so that we can enjoy more meat. Are they considered as ‘evil?’

As I’ve said before, it’s a dog-eat-dog world out there. We can have our playful interests over Pixar films and all, but let’s not forget the reality of things. Treat Boo as… a piece of mutton meat we eat, if you will.

#26

Replace the word ‘think’ with the word ‘know’, and then that statement would be correct. :laughing:

You’re very right there, WBoon. Evil itself is so undefined, that it’s practically unfair to label either Waternoose or Randall evil, because the fact is that neither of them are. They both did things because of certain motivations, and they both had an end goal in sight that wasn’t really evil at all. They just did things unscrupulously to get there (or not get there, as the case may be).

#27

If I said it that way it would be weird since I’m a guy :laughing:

folds arms I haven’t referred to Waternoose as evil in this thread. But between him and Randall, I consider Waternoose closer to that shade. As Waternoose already had his wealth and family name behind him (he’d probably get off on his charges or at least a severely reduced sentence), got rid of someone (by Banishment) he treated like family (Sullivan), and was behind it all and, clearly, aimed to pin it on Randall when it suited him.

#28

I think it’s a really good and oft used setup, to have the seemingly kind and trustworthy character (waternoose) turn out the sort of puppet master of the entire scheme.

And I really like animagusurreal’s comparison!:
“In a sense, you could say that Randall is the Darth Maul or Darth Vader of the movie, and Waternoose is the Darth Sidious (not in terms of the “evilness level”, but in terms of how the protaganists and the audience are aware of them).”

That seems about right in how the audience of this film is manipulated into thinking Randall is our main villian throughout.

Debating Randall’s own manipulation and just how much of a pawn he was can be a never ending debate! I think that because this is told almost entirely through Mike and Sulley’s eyes, we have to accept that he is a “bad guy” of sorts in this context, even if he isn’t behind the entire Scream Extractor idea.

The great thing about it being revealed that Waternoose was behind the plan, is that it surely makes Randall the more complicated character a lot of people see him as (myself included). It makes a fan look back on the entire film from an entirely new persective and gives these other characters an added depth.

Having said that, I do still like to think of Randall as a bad guy (I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed him half so much if he wasn’t), but a bad guy who just isn’t aware of it. He, rather like Waternoose, has got his own motives, and they both seem to think they’re doing these things out of their own sense of good. ie “the good of the company” and Randall’s motives appear a little more confused between seeking approval from his boss and a petty sort of “I’ll show you” attitude toward Sullivan.

I do think it is Waternoose who garners the most sympathy from the audience though. Or at least he is the character who is allowed the most sympathy by the writers. He is the one who appears to regret banishing Sulley, he is the one who often has an expression of regret throughout much of the Boo/Scream extractor sequence. Although this is later cancelled out by the “I’ll kidnap 1000 children…” line and his lashing out at Sulley. I guess this needed to be included so the audience felt it was justified whenWaternoose was captured at the end of the film.

Having said that, despite the lack of sympathy shown to Randall throughout the film (in my opinion), I think that upon future viewings, when you already are aware that Waternoose is behind it, it’s easy to pick up moments of sympathy for Randall. Waternoose’s apparent favouritism of Sulley springs to mind for me, as well as the fact that Randall appears to be running around like a lowly lackey for much of the film, getting snappier and snappier. And its only upon the second viewing can you appreciate that Randall really is just the lackey here.

I voted for the first option. Waternoose certainly knew what he was doing, and even if he did show clear hints of regret, it was more than obvious he planned to keep up the warped plan, and at the cost of various monsters too.

#29

Interesting post, Lil-Bandit. I agree with everything you’ve said, especially concerning needing to see the film twice in order to really appreciate Randall’s role in the whole thing.

#30

Lil Bandit

It’s always from one person’s perspective…unless you do a sort of Pulp Fiction sort of thing ^0^

Personally I don’t consider Randall a bad person. Just a good person with allot on his mind that got put between a rock and a hard place. I mean I still go with the “he tried to give them a way out” bit (Randall: I think I know how to make this all go away). I mean a true-to-heart bad guy wouldn’t give heroes a way out. Sure he’s got a temper and a grudge against Sulley (which is probably understandable and part of the bigger picture), but there’s still allot we don’t know about him. And because of that, not too right to judge him harshly :slight_smile:

I thought kinda shifted to “oh this guy is great…wish I had a boss like that” to “JEEZ…maybe not” ^0^

Good point LB ^^ I believe that in any film, viewing it a few times make you look at the different layers that are within ^^
And erieely, I recall watching movies some times and seeing scenes I didin’t see before 0_0

#31

It’s weird, I never really think of the “I think I know how to make this all go away” line when defending Randall. I think I see it as a sort of desperation not to have to confess to Waternoose that someone might have figured out their scheme. Not really compassion on his part to give Mike a “way out”. But even my view lends sympathy to Randall’s character.

Oh yes I think it’s entirely justified that Randall has a bit of a grudge against Sulley, and by no fault of Sulley’s either. The blame here can lie mostly with Waternoose and his blatant favouritism. This could also contribute a bit to Waternoose being the real villain of the film too :wink:

Haha, it seems the more I think on this, the more I dislike Waternoose. ^^

#32

shrugs Randall might have been sly at the moment, but he was also a little unnerved by the “your cheating” comment made by Wazowski, which he quickly started to defy (and later he doesn’t take the credit when Celia announces it later in the film to distract him)

Good that you noticed :slight_smile: I do have a hate to Sullivan for what he did at the end, but it doesn’t leave me blind to the truth that Waternoose could have manipulated Sullivan and Randall’s “past” to his advantage. Oh yeah why not highten scores for a guy you consider “like a son” and get the former Top Scarer ticked off enough to go with your crazy idea.

Hehehe ^^ Well there’s allot of evidence ^^

#33

I enjoy questions that all it takes is a one word answer: yes.

#34

Randall Boggs is the main antagonist. Here are examples how.

  1. When Waternoose banished Sulley and Mike when Randall made him do so, Mike told Sulley afterwards, “Too bad he (Waternoose) was in on the whole thing!”. If Waternoose was the mastermind, Mike would have said," Too bad he was behind the whole thing!".
  2. After Waternoose feels remorse for banishing his scarers, he tells Randall he never should have trusted him with the plan (meaning that Randall is behind everything) and that because of him, he had to banish Sulley. In response, Randall says they won’t need scarers with the Scream Extractor and that Sulley got what he deserved anyway. Offended and angered, Waternoose retorts that Sulley was twice the scarer Randall will ever be. After growling in frustration and irritation at Waternoose, Randall forces him to accept his plan and to stand back and watch
  3. When Waternoose told Randall to get Sulley, Randall was already enraged and prepared to attack anyway.
  4. When Waternoose told Randall there cannot be witnesses to Randall’s plan, Randall said in a sinisterly way that there won’t be, implying that he intends to betray (and possibly kill) Waternoose after Sulley and Mike.
  5. When Waternoose told Sulley that he and Boo have seen too much, he meant too much of Randall’s plan. Then when he said he had on choice but to make things be that way, it was most likely because Randall was forcing him and that Waternoose just wanted the company to keep going. When Sulley asked him about kidnapping children, Waternoose said he will kidnap a thousand children (meaning for Randall) before letting the company die and silence anyone who gets in his way (meaning for Randall’s plan).
  6. Randall is much more prominent in the first film as the villain since Waternoose’s antagonistic role is only revealed near the end. Also, Randall is more evil than Waternoose since his actions and disposition are more overtly malicious and he holds a personal grudge against the protagonists. However, unlike Randall, Waternoose would have preferred them not to get involved in Randall’s plan and thus, need to be eliminated.
  7. Steve Buscemi’s name is listed first before James Coburn in the villain list. Whereas, it probably would have been James Coburn first.
  8. Even CEOs and elderly people can be henchmen as they are just people and not some kind of gods or anything like that.
#35

sigh Alright, I suppose I’ll have to be the one to bring sense back to things. It’s tiring to explain things again, but lets try again. From the top people:

  1. There was no indication at all that Randall made Waternoose do anything. The last time we see Randall, he’s just leaving the Scream Extractor area (turning off the machine which Sullivan strapped Fungus into I might add). There was no time period between then and their arrival at the simulator for Randall to speak to Waternoose. Even beforehand if they had some way to contact one another, Waternoose was in an ACTIVE, scheduled, simulation, with witnesses. There was no way that Randall told him to do anything, even if he arrived first. (to speak, even when invisible, Randall would have to open his mouth, something that becomes visible since he can’t blend his insides)
    As for Wazowski, his words there don’t really mean anything. Him and Sullivan don’t know the barebones of what all went on. Only ones who do are Waternoose and Randall (Fungus may have been out of the loop as well, considering his surprise and silence at being in the extractor room with Waternoose)

  2. You know the quote right? “I never should have trusted YOU with THIS”. YOU being Randall and THIS being the Extractor. Waternoose placed trust in Randall with something else, not Randall in him. Waternoose? Remorse? Riiight…he was very remorseful chasing Sullivan down and showing just how not-so-old this guy with pincer legs can be, showing no regard or thankfulness that Sullivan was back from the punishment he was “forced to do”. Randall chased them as well, so it’s something they both share in that regard. Also, he say’s “Top Scarer”, not “Sulley” or “Sullivan” or even his preferred “James”…if he was even remorseful, you’d THINK he’d actually say his NAME. And he sure isn’t happy or glad even for a moment when Sullivan suddenly shows up again. Shows you what Waternoose really thinks of people…as titles, pieces to move around to secure his own legacy.

As for Randall, once the situation passed, how does he sound? Mocking? Giddy? Pleased? No. He sounds solemn, relieved that things are finally coming to an end with the whole thing. He did NOT intend to have something happen to the two. And yes, that is fact. He tried, through Wazowski to get them BOTH out of things early. Just leave the kid in her room and they could just walk away. Even if the plan worked, he wasn’t going to “kill” either of them. (“The great James P. Sullivan will be working for me.”) Though quite soon afterward he finally “snaps”, as ironically when the Scream Extractor snaps off the ceiling.

  1. Granted. Anyone would be at the time. Considering the person you were told (i.e. ordered) to attack just ruined everything and just won’t stay out of the way.

  2. This is something that came from tumblr or other such sources. Considering Waternoose knew to get away with Sullivan and Wazowski “disappearing”, there is NO way that Randall would get away with killing Waternoose without repercussions. Did he dislike Waternoose? Yes. Hate him? Partly perhaps. Waternoose was pressuring him and ordering him about in ways more than CEO should, and Randall was tiring of it (as anyone would). Once the extractor went through (Randall would think), he’d be free of being ordered about, instead he would be in that position (and probably better handling than Waternoose, once he got the experience).
    As we see, once he’s dealt with the two (Well Sullivan at least, Wazowski is still around. Though the last time he saw the two, they were plummeting, seeing Sullivan would inform him that Wazowski was back and around too), he’s calmed a little. He could be yelling at Boo or threatening to drop her off (none of which he does, he never intended to kill her, another idiotic assumption). He’s thinking of what to do now that everything’s broken down.
    Heck, Waternoose was going to betray Randall. He had the CDA organized at the end of the line for Boo’s door. To him, if Randall was thinking of betraying him (or siding with Sullivan and Wazowski)…or the plain “this has gone to heck, get rid of all the evidence and use my scapegoat”…he pretty much had himself covered. Randall, if it was him on the door (possibility that Waternoose knew he was returning her. But, at the basis, everyone was gunning for Boo’s door, so calling it was the obvious option anyway), would have little to give in defense against a wealthy CEO with a butt-load of lawyers.

  3. That’s not really substantial. “Seeing too much” is too varied. If he had said “too much of Randall’s plan” you might have something, but he didn’t say that. Randall had nothing to force Waternoose’s hand. What? He was the only one who could build the extractor? There could be several monsters Waternoose could pay/put in service to make it. He’d say something? Again, Waternoose was CEO, and his boss. He could fire him for whatever reasons he could drum up, and nobody would believe a fallen-top-scarer over a well-respected CEO, and discredit him in however fashion he pleased.
    Waternoose did want to keep the company going. At the base, that’s a noble goal. Personally his plan doesn’t seem too illegal at first glance. What does seem to be the clincher is the kidnapping of a test subject. Bringing a human into the monster world is most likely illegal…but to test such an device, it was necessary, considering you couldn’t exactly lug a huge machine through a child’s bedroom. Maybe he was worried in a business sense, that people would steal the designs or something. Then again, it’s probably because he wanted to ensure that the machine that would revolutionize the industry was solely under the Waternoose name.
    Let me get you the actual quote here: “I’ll kidnap a thousand children before I let this company die, and I’ll silence anyone who gets in my way!”
    You can see that he is talking of himself, not Randall. This was his plan, his idea, he would revolutionize things. His company was going down, a company his father and grandfather had held up for generators. For it to fall under his direction wouldn’t be just disastrous, but shameful. So much so to be an unbearable thought. We see Waternoose is willing to do what it takes to keep Monsters Inc. running.

  4. He is more prominent, in terms of screentime, and that’s the point. Waternoose is the “man behind the man”. You wouldn’t suspect Waternoose was behind things when you first look at it. But it makes sense, in the end his company was going down.
    Evility is not the issue here. If you claim Randall as evil, you have to claim the others as well for their actions. Randall was an employee who wanted respect and admiration, Waternoose was a well-respected CEO (and proud family) who wanted to keep his company afloat. Both aspects aren’t something evil, they’re basic wants and needs to improve one’s life and self-worth. But things got twisted up later, affecting them both. The continued strain on things going wrong made them both go into an aggressive breakdown. They clearly both wanted things to be finished, and they would get better for it once it was done. But things didn’t work out that way.
    As for a personal grudge, that’s more toward Sullivan. Since college, Randall’s had this image of him, as a slacker/cheater/humiliator. And given their lack of interaction, that image remains true to him. It’s false, of course. Sullivan, by the time of his change, turns into a nice everyday guy who’s probably good to hang out with. It’s the personal part (the accidental humiliation) that makes Randall not further things in a better direction. Wazowski doesn’t exactly help with the taunting, something he’s likely done on a day-to-day basis when they took the Top Scarer position from him. I would guess that if the extractor had gone through as normal, Randall would be in a higher position, above Sullivan, and would, slowly unfortunately, start to see things better.
    Again, you forget, like several things, that Randall was the FIRST to try and get the two out of things. He gave Wazowski, and Sullivan by extension, a way to just walk away. He’d leave the door, they’d leave the kid, walk away, things continue as normal, and none the wiser. First time Waternoose hears about them knowing? Banishment. Hmm…“walk away” or “thrown in the Himalayas” hmm…now which is more malicious…

  5. Really. Villain list. What villains list would that be? And again, why is this a point? If I HAD to say something on a list…considering Randall is technically seen first before Waternoose (commercial aside, it wasn’t technically a first meeting), it might simply be in order-of-appearance.

  6. Your boss is your god! Heh. End on a joke. Ahem. Anyway. First, the elderly thing. Yes, they can be taken advantage of, quite easily. Frail, maybe dulled or suffering from some illness or a kind, or mistreated because of such…and that’s elderly people. CEOs…however…take charge of MANY employees…they are their BOSS. They decide if your actions are beneficial or detrimental to the company or fellow employees. If you continually slack, under-perform, or are overly aggressive (overly mind you) to fellow workers, they can let you go.
    Now, that’s a basis cover for elderly people and CEOs. Now, lets talk about Waternoose. Is he elderly? Oh, that is indeed questionable. Yes, it is. Waternoose is considered “tender” at an age over 100 (142 actually, if I recall correctly), when he inherited the position as CEO from his father. Now in terms of that word usage…I believe it means “young” in terms of age. Now, it’s questionable exactly when before MI Waternoose inherited (at least a few years, given that he was there for Wazowski and Sullivan’s joining of the company as scarers. How in the heck he had an afro is questionable in itself (probably just for comedic effect, though if he truly had one…guess he started literally losing hair when his grip on the company started going away), but his appearance can betray how old his species can be.
    Yes, he probably is “up in his years”, but he’s not frail or timid. We see his vigor when he chases Sullivan down near the end. He may be old, but he’s not feeble in the least.
    But from his age, there is one thing Waternoose has over everyone around him, for the most part. Experience. Living a long time, going to high-based-schools and training in your respective fields, Waternoose knows how to handle things. That’s what he did with Randall. Randall was still young, and inexperienced in several fields. To compare who can manipulate who is no challenge. Waternoose was his boss, had far more experience to work with, knew that there was a tense relationship with James P. Sullivan…
    Some “elderly people” with enough experience and intended goals can be just as dangerous.

To say Randall is completely innocent is false, to say Waternoose is is also false. They both have done and acted in an antagonistic way. But if your looking for the one who began this descent, look at the latter.

Now that those issues have been handled, again, for 100th time, do be gracious enough to delete your 24 or so all-the-same responses (lacking a sentence or two) to quoted material (some of which not even related to the topic at-hand). The admins and moderators work hard on this board I imagine, and seeing someone clog up a topic with the same exact thing word-for-word for over two pages is probably making them grimace. Plus, sure don’t want people to think your trolling right?

#36

Also, was posting the same dang thing 36 staright times really nessecarry? I mean really?

#37

Sorry. I was just trying to make a point. That it makes more sense of Mr. Waternoose being Randall’s chief henchman instead of vice versa.

#38

So do you believe Mr. Waternoose is the hidden secondary antagonist and Randall’s chief henchman?

#39

I always assumed Waternoose was behind the whole thing, given that the plot sets him up as the twist villain and Randall up as a red herring (though Randall is by no means benign). Just the sheer power difference between a worker and a CEO makes it implausible that Randall would be calling the shots. A CEO could sabotage a scarer’s career, not to mention that Waternoose gets up to illegal activities like banishment and has enough contacts and power to cover it up. What could Randall do to him? Sure, he’s smart, but the odds are all stacked against him. Even if he did kill Waternoose he’d probably spend the rest of his days rotting in jail (unless he really is smart enough to avoid getting caught). “I never should have trusted you with this” sounds to me like Waternoose recruited Randall for the plan maybe based on his tech savviness.

Randall is definitely not innocent, but I just don’t see how a scarer could feasibly hold the puppet strings over a well reknown CEO involved in illegal activities and cover ups. It just wouldn’t work. Someone in Randall’s position would have no way of controlling someone in Waternoose’s, and if Randall had come up with the plan and tried to control him,and Waternoose didn’t want anything to do with it, Waternoose could rip his life to shreds in moments.

#40

Mr. Waternoose is the hidden secondary antagonist and Randall’s chief henchman.