Justice League/Justice League Unlimited

I think the problem with Superman is that for some writers he’s difficult to get right. He has so many powers, even invulnerability and his only weakness in terms of his powers are a variety of coloured rocks and the odd villian who can match him for strength or are near invulnerable. It can either be that they make him too perfect (as in the Gary Stu, perhaps even preaching why he is right) or if they don’t like him, can turn him into well… something that is hard to like at all and kind of a jerk.

In the end Superman is generally considered to be the idealised version of an American. And this changes as America’s overall view on this changes. However whose to say this idealised vision can’t have flaws? And after all, everyone has a different view as to what perfection is, to the level it could be said that it doesn’t exist.

What is justice and fair to Superman could be too strict or too lax to completely different people, depending on who you ask in hypothetical X situation, and if he existed in real life you just know there would be people in the media giving him grief too. Superman is also seen as the one the media in the DC universe looks to most of all. The #1 hero, and probably the first hero they’d think of not counting whatever resident hero is there (Batman for Gotham etc.). This can produce a unique kind of pressure even most heroes wouldn’t get. He MUST be perfect. He MUST be good and pure. And he has to hold back or else he’d probably break someone’s neck with his little finger. And other heroes look up to him too.

But perfection does not exist and he can’t really give it.

And for just a general character some virtues or talents can be also a failing or even a weakness. For instance the concept of lying:

If someone is GOOD at it, they can perhaps get out of certain situations and be important sometimes in even saving a life, but upon having this talent found out this makes it difficult for him/her to be trusted by perhaps even allies and loved ones. Plus of course there are ethical questions involved. Sometimes a white lie or a big one is needed, but you’ve got to know where to stop, and it’s possible for trust in general to be shattered. Those who are bad liars and/or engage in full frontal honesty? While they are more trustworthy perhaps well, as stated, there could be a life or death situation where you HAVE to lie. Or at least bend the truth. The refusal to do this or inability to do so can result in bad things. Even result in someone losing their life.

Basically Superman is in general a good person, and writing should reflect that. That he tries his best to make that good and ethical choice. But there are some things his powers can’t fix. He can’t bring people back to the dead, sometimes there’s a time limit on making the ‘right’ decision even super speed can’t help with, and even in some ways he’s a danger (like one of those pretty rocks making him go insane or simply an enemy engaging in mind control). However without this even in the end an interesting thing in throwing a wrench into the works is making it HARD to identify what is right or wrong and to throw the guy into morally ambiguous situations where there are perhaps good arguments or understandable consequences to the road he takes. Life isn’t a simple choice of good or evil for the most part. The hardest part in the batlle of ‘good and evil’ if we’re to use those terms at all can be identifying which is which! And many decisions can be a constant weighing of the two and the long-term and short-term impacts.

Also Superman can’t see into the future, so some impacts might not even be considered until they happen.

It brings questions like whether he should just kill Lex Luthor- because the guy is constantly getting away with it, and it’s something he did in an AU in JLU too. With consequences. Resulting in all of the JLU going too far and becoming the Justice Lords. Also in genearl killing villians asks questions like: where does it stop, when do they know when to stop? And who watches the watchmen? As it were.

In the end the JLU Superman still had the desire to do good as well as his own personal feelings. He wasn’t made of stone and he could be gotten to if not physically, emotionally. Batman mentioning how he’d been humiliated for instance and turned loose on people clouded his judgement in certain matters. He also could let his own paranoia rule him when it came to Luthor (which was paranoia that was pretty understandable and even true to an extent). He can snap and get angry, and even good people can especially when scared of what could happen. Superman is more emotional and open than Batman. This makes him more approachable for some. He therefore wouldn’t get upset if he didn’t care, but getting upset can also lead to the wrong decision. And JLU built up him cracking over a good long time with Luthor and Cadmus, it didn’t feel like it came out of the left field like how sometimes people try to with suddenly!jerk!preachy!Superman, trying to take him down a peg. And people were genuinely scared of him and the rest of JLU making for some great antagonists, especially in the case of my favourite DC antagonist of all time Amanda Waller and certain other Cadmus characters. She was understandable as well as utterly awesome without superpowers.

It’s understandable in JLU for Superman to be angry and upset and paranoid considering what he faces just as it is for Amanda Waller to join Cadmus and be willing to deal with Luthor in order to able to watch the Justice League, knowing what she knows and seeing what she’s seen.

Just make Superman a regular person with many powers trying to do the right thing with the stress of being ‘perfect’ and sometimes having to make morally complicated decisions and they’re probably onto a winner like with JLU Superman. Make things go wrong, make it turn out he made the wrong decision sometimes. Make him angry and pranoid about what might go wrong because he cares about doing the right thing, but make that anger also at times be a weakness.

JLU is definitely my favourite incarnation of him and I’ve yet to find one as good and relateable in all honesty.

And that right there is what ticks me off about post-reboot!Superman. By taking away his human parents and marriage, he is about as generic as you can get with superheroes. Dead parents, angst, feels different, no one to turn to, pining for their love interest but can’t achieve them. His family life and marriage very much made him, like you said, a normal, patriotic American who wants to do the right thing and finds stress trying to be so very perfect, also making him different and interesting. Now he’s a less-interesting Batman with powers, and I’m mad.

Anyone who doesn’t like Superman, or wants to see an absolutely perfectly written version of him, needs to read All Star Superman by Grant Morrison. My favorite comic of all time, the only one to have brought me to near tears and doesn’t need knowledge of any continuity to read. Seriously, GET IT NOW.

Anyway, more on JLA/JLU. My love for the Question still stands (WHY, DC? You has this whole major reboot and you DON’T BRING BACK VIC SAGE? I may have even forgiven you for ending the Clark/Lois marriage if you did!..[size=50]maybe[/size]) and he and Huntress are by far my favorite ship. Just, ah, so funny and weird and kinda hot in its own, totally awesome way.

You guys bring up interesting points. And I will try to check up on that comic. MG, this show is my favorite Superman as well.

Who were your guy’s favorite character’s? Mine was either Batman or The Flash. I liked them for their humor.

Batman, Wonderwoman, Flash. In that order.

how come there isn’t a live action JL movie, like the Avengers? They should make one.

I think because most DC movies don’t do great except for Batman.

But it would be so cool. It could be terrific.

Yeah, it could be. But who knows. They would have to make it for older viewers since the kids who grew up with old arn’t kids anymore.

I mean a live action movie, though, outside the DC Animated Universe. Nobody, or everybody, will have “grown up with it.”

Wow, mentalguru!!! You totally nailed it perfectly. He is rarely written well and it’s very disappointing. He’s my all-time favourite, and it annoys me that people so quickly label him as too powerful and not relatable. I love that he’s so powerful, that’s part of his appeal. When did being the best become uncool? Superman is relatable by how he chooses to use the power he has.

I’m sure most people have had times like that in their life. If you’re at the park and see a parent continuously hitting their child, you have the power to step in and stop it - but will you? If you do, how do you resist the urge to punch the parent? This is Superman’s dilemma. People ask, “Why doesn’t he just throw Lex Luthor off the building?” That is the real conflict for Superman.

My favourite version was on Lois & Clark: New Adventures of Superman. He got to be himself as Clark and have a normal, happy life. When trouble arose he would sometimes deal with it smartly and subtly without anyone noticing him. When that wasn’t possible, his excuses to leave and be Superman were hilarious. “I just remembered, I …have to return a rented video… pick up a cheese platter… left my oven on”.


To stay on topic, DC/Warner Bros have been trying to make a Justice League movie for over a decade. The development never seems to get very far. The closest they came was a Superman/Batman film that almost got made (they even included pre-mature product placement for it in the film ‘I Am Legend’. I did read recently that they might be planning a Justice League film for release around 2015, so fingers crossed!

^Woah, that sounds awesome!! I hope that works out myself.

I didn’t realise until I just Wiki’d it that the DCAU (DC Animated Universe) of the 90s - mid-2000’s was so vast. I LOVE shows and movies that all link together, like Marvel Studios is currently doing with The Avengers, or a series like Stargate that have three shows all inter-linked.

I never really saw much of these cartoons back in the day, but now I plan to buy all the boxsets.
So for someone new to these stories, what would be the best order to watch them - or what is your preferred viewing order?

A suggested order I found via Google was this:
(Not including Static Shock or The Zeta Project which aren’t on DVD)

Batman: The Animated Series, season 1
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
Batman: The Animated Series, season 2
Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero
Superman: The Animated Series, seasons 1-3 (exclude “Legacy”)
Batman: The Animated Series (remainder)
Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman
Superman: The Animated Series, season 3 “Legacy”
Justice League, season 1
Justice League, season 2
Justice League Unlimited, seasons 1-2 (exclude “Epilogue”)
Batman Beyond, seasons 1-3
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
Justice League Unlimited, season 1 “Epilogue”

Well, I started with Batman:TAS, then went to the spin off films, then Batman Beyond(hate it) and then Justice League, after which I will go Superman: TAS.

BUT, do NOT watch Batman:TAS or Mask of the Phantasm first. Only because, everything else will severely disappoint you after that. 8D 8D :`-(

hahaha! Well then, when it comes time to move on from Batman I’ll keep my expectations in check :wink:

That’s a very unique viewing order! Any particular reason?

Well, I’m really just seeing Superman last because that’s the only one I can’t get my hands on, and I have to watch it on youtube. Whereas Batman comes on the Hub, and my brother has the Justice League.

Oh, ok!

So how come you don’t care too much for Batman Beyond? I only ever saw one episode and had no idea what was going on at the time lol.

It shatters the entire Batman canon. Yes, 'tis set in the future, but it sort of ruins the whole mythology. And it pains me to see Bruce reduced to mentoring such a worthless punk. And I just hate how the universe works. Barbara used to be married to Bruce? WTF?!?!?!

Oh wow, that actually sounds really bad. Now I don’t know if I even want to watch it. The crossover in JLU will probably be enough for me. Thanks for the tip!

No problem. Most real Batman fans dislike it from my understanding.

I think I just found the greatest thing ever. Has anyone seen it?