Well yeah. Of course, but I’m also not going to ignore the sequels too, It’s kind of hard to ignore. 
I think right now more should be put into thinking about the more tangible. Franchise expansion almost never works out the way execs plan. Look back at the last decade and count the number of failed franchises there were (in general not just DWA). Even the ever-popular Shrek won’t be getting that fabled fifth installment. MvA was never picked up by any of the networks.
So let’s stick to what we know, because if we’ve learned anything by now is that Katz is kinda the king of hyperbole.
What we know:
-There’s an HTTYD 2 on route for a 2013 release date
-There’s an HTTYD tv show en route for approximately the same time
-There’s a Puss in Boots movie coming out soon.
-Ditto for Kung Fu Panda 2
-Madagascar sequel is probably happening.
Outside of that everything else is pure speculation. If we stick to what we know is actually in the pipeline we can get a better handle on things then the average knee-jerk reaction to Katz’s issues with sequelmania.
I didn’t mean to single you out EJE. I just wanted to say there’s a lot more conversation to be had in what we do know than the outrage over what we might know.
And I know, I’m King Hypo being that I started the sequel thread in the first place. So the irony is definitely not lost on me. 
Oh, I know you weren’t saying that other animated films aren’t as good. I was just speaking generally. 
Here’s everything with a release date in all the studios’ pipelines (less Pixar) for CG features…and pure speculation on whether there’s a chance of each being at least on par with Cars in terms of overall perceived quality and audience response. No CG hybrids and such included here, just pure CG features…so no Smurfs or Me and My Shadow.
Gnomeo & Juliet (Starz) 2/11/11: unlikely to be on par with Cars
Rango (ILM) 3/4/11: possibly at least on par with Cars
Rio (Blue Sky) 4/15/11: possibly at least on par with Cars
Kung Fu Panda 2 (DreamWorks) 5/26/11: probably not on par with Cars
Puss In Boots (DreamWorks) 11/4/11: probably not on par with Cars
Happy Feet 2 (Animal Logic) 11/18/11: possibly in the ballpark of Cars
Arthur Christmas (Aardman/Sony) 11/23/11: possibly at least on par with Cars
The Lorax (Illumination) 3/2/12: possibly at least on par with Cars
The Croods (DreamWorks) 3/30/12: possibly at least on par with Cars
Madagascar 3 (DreamWorks) 5/18/12: unlikely to be on par with Cars
Ice Age 4 (Blue Sky) 7/13/12: unlikely to be on par with Cars
Hotel Transylvania (Sony) 9/21/12: probably not on par with Cars
The Guardians of Childhood (DreamWorks) 11/21/12: possibly in the ballpark of Cars
Feel free to correct any factual errors here.
Also to bear in mind is that a ‘Pixar’s better’ comparison has an obvious Western slant to it. People in Japan, for example, would set Studio Ghibli as the benchmark for quality animation. So standards are always subjective and elastic depending on assessment criteria (amount of fart jokes, box-office performance, tearjerking probability) and geography.
Agreed! Not only have I promoted this viewpoint in conversation, tdit, your expanded and tolerant perceptions are what drew me to this board. Even so, it could be that all the various components (box-office, relative populations, inflation adjustments, video sales, cultural cross-pollination a la Seven Samurai) lead to a conclusion that Pixar is more like a global standard bearer of animation than Ghibli…including in Japan. That might warrant a whole different topic, to which I’d happily contribute if called for.
Meanwhile, some interesting numbers follow. Box Office Mojo isn’t exhaustive in its foreign data, but…
Spirited Away: $230 million in Japan, $10 million in North America
Howl’s Moving Castle: $190 million in Japan, $5 million in North America
Ponyo: $165 million in Japan, $15 million in North America
Princess Mononoke: $2 million in North America
Note that the American domestic fugures could be expanded to include “the West” (especially UK and Australia) as a whole, but these numbers keep it simple for now. At any rate, there’s support for the idea that Ghibli is more popular in Japan–no surprise.
As a quick run through Pixar’s Japanese box-office numbers…
Toy Story 3: $127 million
Finding Nemo: $102 million
Monsters Inc.: $74 million
Up: $52 million
The Incredibles: $50 million
WALL-E: $44 million
Ratatouille: $33 million
Cars: $12 million
Food for thought?
Cheers! Steve
The difference in box office just among Pixar films alone in Japan is astounding. The range is $12-127 million?!?! Crazy!
While numbers are flying, here’s another tool that might be useful in gauging Pixar’s success relative to that of other studios producing CG features. The numbers below are ratios of worldwide box-office earnings to budget. In other words, Toy Story made $362 million worldwide on a budget of $30 million, so its ratio is 12.1
Estimates are used for films still in release. Also, the worldwide figures are slightly skewed for recent films because, for example, India figures are unavailable beyond August 2009; and budget info is sometimes hard or impossible to find (Meet the Robinsons being the best example). So estimates are occasionally necessary here. But in general the list suffices for discussion purposes.
It seems likely that studio chiefs are very aware of numbers like these and factor them into decisions about studios’ specific business models. In Pixar’s case, it also might show how Pixar spends quite a bit to make a lot back.
Please feel free to question or fact-check any of these numbers.
Worldwide box-office to budget ratios of all “pure” CG features released to date, in descending order:
Toy Story, 12.1
Ice Age 3, 9.9
Finding Nemo, 9.2
Ice Age 2, 8.2
Shrek, 8.1
Despicable Me, 7.9
Star Wars: The Clone Wars, 7.7
Hoodwinked!, 7.3
The Incredibles, 6.9
Madagascar, 6.8
Ice Age, 6.5
Shrek 2, 6.1
Toy Story 2, 5.4
Toy Story 3, 5.3
Shrek 3, 5.0
Shark Tale, 4.9
Kung Fu Panda, 4.9
Monsters Inc., 4.6
Shrek 4, 4.5
Ratatouille, 4.2
Up, 4.2
Over the Hedge, 4.2
Madagascar 2, 4.0
Cars, 3.9
Happy Feet, 3.8
Horton Hears a Who, 3.5
Robots, 3.5
Jimmy Neutron, 3.4
How to Train Your Dragon, 3.0
A Bug’s Life, 3.0
WALL-E, 2.9
TMNT, 2.8
Cloudy/Meatballs, 2.4
Alpha and Omega, 2.4
Open Season, 2.3
Barnyard, 2.3
Megamind, 2.2
Monsters vs. Aliens, 2.2
Chicken Little, 2.1
Bolt, 2.1
Tangled, 1.9
Bee Movie, 1.9
VeggieTales (Jonah), 1.9
Valiant, 1.8
Space Chimps, 1.8
Legend of the Guardians, 1.8
Fly Me to the Moon, 1.7
Antz, 1.6
9, 1.6
Planet 51, 1.5
Surf’s Up, 1.5
The Tale of Despereaux, 1.5
Doogal, 1.4
The Wild, 1.3
Igor, 1.2
Flushed Away, 1.2
Meet the Robinsons, 1.1
The Ant Bully, 1.1
Battle for Terra, 1.0
VeggieTales (Pirates), 0.9
Happily N’Ever After, 0.8
Astro Boy, 0.6
Everyone’s Hero, 0.6
Roadside Romeo, 0.3
The Ten Commandments, 0.1
Delgo, 0.0
Kaena: The Prophecy, 0.0
I’m not really surprised Monsters Inc is Japan’s third favourite feature. It’s supposedly big in Japan I hear. But generally it kind of fits their general tastes- slap stick humour and strange beings of another world. Japan loves their fantasy and I think Monsters Inc caters to some of their specific tastes even if it is very Western in of itself.
That’s interesting Steve. Thanks for the numbers!
Of course the shame is, that the amount of money they make is not necessarily indicative of quality in my book, I mean in any case, I hope Megamind blows garbage like Shark Tale out of the water in any case overall. I mean even HTTYD didn’t beat it! And KFP got the same ratio…
Of course Toy Story was the very first movie and was a hit when they didn’t have all that much money to spend to begin with like now, where they are actually now quite literally, utterly filthy rich (come on Pixar aren’t little anymore, they’re rolling in it completely and utterly, they could use 50 dollar bills as coasters). They have huge budgets now so I guess that might eat a bit away at the ratio between the budget and what is made, but they are still possibly making more of a raw net profit number, even disregarding ratios maybe?
Of course that maybe could partially account for Shark Tale- it is terrible and maybe they didn’t invest that much in it or at least they didn’t expend a lot of writing effort… but then that costs little except time which I guess costs money in the long run, but overall it still made money of course. (I’d need to see the raw figures I guess as mentioned). But then what the public spends money on doesn’t necessarily always indicate quality in any case.
I mean, look at Twilight.
In terms of pure quality rather than money, I think DW’s top three (KFP, MM and HTTYD) are definitly within most of Pixar’s ranges in terms of how enjoyable they are, yet KFP and Megamind are ultimately films I could never see Pixar making either. Just not their style at all. So that’s why I’m glad other companies exist. A few Shark Tales I’m more than willing to put up with for the things Pixar would never make but are still amazing in their own way. HTTYD is even something I’d have trouble seeing Pixar do too, though it would be more plausible than say the other two. But then TS3 was certainly a bit different to Pixar’s original style I think, though it wasn’t DW’s style either, (fairly dark for a TS feature at least), and some people think Cars 2 will be ery different too in some form given the trailers after all. Who knows, maybe Monsters Inc 2 will be something completely different to what people suspect it to be about . It does have dark elements they could play around with if they took it into their heads to do so at any rate. (I don’t believe the prequel rumours yet.) Not to mention Brave and whatever they have planned next.
Of course some of these were also surprises in other places on this list- Ice Age was Blue Sky’s first film, and I think it is overall still ultimately their best. So it’s odd to me their sequels made more in ratios.
But with Toy Story I think it’s mainly- first film, probably a much lower budget, but then…SURPRISE HIT! Big ratio and difference between the two areas of budget and what was made. Plus Toy Story had that novelty to begin with as it was the first and only of it’s kind at the time which probably helped- curious people went and then the word was spread about what it was like.
The novelty of CG cartoons has almost worn off I think now though, so much so that we get people seeing traditional animation as more unique now and something which stands out in movies too. I mean now it’s practically expected that one CG feature will be the major hit of the year be it Dreamworks or Pixar or occasionally Blue Sky or those poor companies stated as ‘other’.
Of course there’s supposed to be things rolling around about Pixar getting into traditional animation I believe- though it’s a bit strange, I mean their name is from Pixel-art. But then it’s not really an area of animation people want to see die after all in any case.
mentalguru: Agreed! And it would be no surprise if most folks here felt the same. But, as nintendofreakgcn pointed out in another topic, movie tickets are analogous to votes, so box-office numbers are a reasonable gauge of popularity…and that likely factors in to the decisions about things like, “Should we make an original film or go for the sequel?”
One interesting thing about that list is how the Shrek movies have declined in their ratios, while the Ice Age movies are on an upswing. Perhaps that’s why Shrek Forever After is likely the last, and the Ice Age continues…
Also, Hoodwinked! might be regarded by some as a model of how to lowball the budget and bring in some healthy return on investment.
Oh, sorry I missed your post, little-chef. I read it, but it was 3 AM, so I just typed something really fast. 
I think I pretty much share your sentiments, though. I don’t like most of their movies, but Dragons and Panda give me hope for the future.
This is certainly an interesting way to look at things. Something else to take into consideration is the massive amount of money made from merchandise and DVDs/blu-rays. I’m not sure how much of the profit Pixar gets to keep for themselves, but imagine the numbers! But how many of these other studios have merchandise you see a lot of in every major department store? Not many, although I haven’t necessarily been looking very hard. I do know that these items exist, but like I said, they’re not that common considering how well those movies do in theaters. It’s interesting how Pixar has managed to slowly invade people’s homes through toys, collectibles, bedding, etc. It’s almost as if that creates a deeper personal connection with their viewers and thus places more importance on them (think Disney), but perhaps I’m taking this theory too far.
One question I have about this thread: why is it limited to computer-animated features? I compare movies based more on story than on their specific medium. For example, the only thing about putting two movies such as The Princess and the Frog and Megamind side-by-side that I find unusual is the difference in plot/structure/style (traditional princess fairy tale musical vs. edgy comedy), but NOT because they’re different kinds of animation physically. And then where would that put other kinds of animation such as the wonderful medium of stop-motion?
Excellent points, q_o_p! Blame me at least in part for focusing on computer animation, and certainly for attempting to couch quality in quantitative terms…which seems to demand comparing films of like format because of the way they’re made. A topic that explores whether Pixar is “better” than others logically focuses on the CG format in terms of an ostensibly level playing field. Also, the deeper you get into aesthetics like artistry and story, the deeper you get into very subjective things that largely come down to individual taste. Quantifying (or comparing) creativity is always a bugaboo.
Also, in large part due to the merchandising/video component you mentioned, it’s not really a level playing field anyway. You’re not taking the theory too far, q_o_p…if there’s any such thing as an “evil empire” component of Pixar that crushes competition and owns the wall, it’s probably the licensing. Here’s an interesting perspective from Rainmaker in Vancouver:
Note that Rainmaker is very much the little guy, and see how the opening of Pixar North in Vancouver might affect them (to be fair, both positively and negatively).
As an interesting footnote on licensing, early in 2010 there were some Burger King kids-meal toys for Hoodwinked Too!..which has yet to be released. Someone was trying for a merchandise tie-in, but the film itself is lost in Hollywood. How’s that for a cart before the horse?
Bottom line, the numbers matter because Disney/Pixar has the biggest coffers with which to provide artistic quality, and they are certainly willing to make that investment in high quality. It’s the centuries-old necessary relationship between art and commerce, and in animation Disney/Pixar does the most from both ends of the relationship. There are many talented, creative folks here (may I single you out for praise, q_o_p, as part of this conversation?), so it might seem that there’s a soullessness about the quantitative, narrow-focused approach that doesn’t account for artistry. But without a frame, the paint (and the discussion) might spread off the canvas and become increasingly difficult to understand or appreciate.
And, q_o_p, I echo your affection for stop-motion animation. If there’s just one other person here who is charmed by the work of Karel Zeman, I’d do a happy dance! Inspiration, indeed.
Cheers! Steve
I am immensely flattered, Steve.
By the way, I’m wondering what Pixar North is up to at the moment?
Rest assured, your post was not ignored, little_chef, as evidenced by aerostarmonk’s response. I similarly underwent a paradigm shift, which I have elaborated on in my Tumblr blog (Scroll down to the ‘Night Fury, Black Swan’ post). 
That’s what Dreamworks did on How To Train Your Dragon, they brought 2 new directors to the studio (Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois) and they redid basically everything… except the casted voice talents, they could stay. They were already in the process of animating when they did this.
Same thing, it’s not something unique to Pixar.
Also, stop nagging about Dreamwork’s sequels… Isn’t Pixar doing pretty much the same now?
Agreed! Hence “most other studios…” It also reinforces the idea that HtTYD is an achievement that enhances what DreamWorks brings to the table. I’ll stop short of saying it makes DW more Pixar-ish. There’s plenty of room in the animation world for different players, different business models. Whatever yields a favorable result is worthwhile, and HtTYD certainly qualifies!
(That 3rd paragraph of my post wasn’t a response to you, should have made that more clear… just in case you took it that way) ^^
There we agree. I just don’t think Pixar is the ‘gold standard’. I do enjoy their movies… A LOT, but I also see points where they can improve sometimes or even things that make me facepalm from time to time. They’re a studio that represents exceptional quality, but I don’t want Pixar to be the gold standard for a good computer animated feature. If other companies can come with a masterpiece doing it their way, by all means, I want them to do it! Viva la difference! 
Well said! And it’s interesting to ponder all the different ways they do it. More than one path to the top of Mount Fuji, for sure.
And “la difference” is what keeps me wondering about an outfit like Vanguard (coupled with their ever-opaque Web presence). It’s likely that they were never aiming for a masterpiece. So what have been their goals? How do they define success? What does “quality” mean to them?
Worlds hang in the balance as we feverishly await answers.
The Lion King wasn’t expected to become a huge success either, Disney was focusing more on Pocahontas at the time, whose success compared to the Lion King is rather underwhelming.
And if there’s 1 movie (aside from Toy Story) that defined my childhood, it’s The Lion King… and not just because I was a narrow minded little bugger, I still adore it.
So yeah… What would have become of the Lion King if they did mean for it to become a worldwide hit? Would it be even more epic? Or would it have become a commercialized, overhyped flop like Avatar?
Commercialised? Yes. Overhyped? Maybe (though some of it was generated by word-of-mouth). Flop? Definitely no!
Avatar forever! runs away from marauding film-school critics
HTTYD was also a last-minute miracle, I have to agree. Pixar does not own a monopoly on quality filmmaking. Back then, yes. Now, not so much.