The Monster World: For science!

[mentalguru]

As a result of an Up discussion, in which Waternoose and Muntz were compared as they were from movies of the same director, I also mentioned that one of the great things about Monsters Inc is the fact that the little details can result in telling us so much about this world. Also in this discussion I pointed out one of my own personal extrapolations is that monsters and humans WERE toxic to each other at one stage, and due to germs both monsters and humans did in fact die upon meeting up with each other again. However over time, the immune system means the threat has been more or less neutralised in terms of so called ‘‘toxicity’’ by the time the events in the movie are playing out, perhaps for quite some time in fact, however (the majority) of monsters still live in fear of this threat all the same even though it no longer exists.

A part of this also comes from Sulley’s line to Boo when she jumps into his bed instead of going into the corner like a good ‘puppy’ he seems to treat her as:

“Hey, that’s my bed. You’re going to get your germs all over it!”
-Sulley. Source: The movie [canon]

Because of this, I have started this thread as a way of trying to piece together how (scientifically speaking), the monster world might work as well as sceintific history if it exists in any kind of canon material. This is a thread from which we will take facts and draw conclusions from them. I HAVE actually got into some great discussion of this in Boggs Board, but I decided to also start it in PP as well as you can see. This could potentially be a thread where people can bump off ideas of a scientific nature in the monster world when perhaps trying to write fanfiction or simply for interests sake.

Items which can be discussed include the reasons why exactly Randall is not a reptile. Also blasting apart other mistakes like the idea the monster world could even function under the Narnia principle (it can’t- once again, I may discuss why precisely later when I have more time). How evolutionary speaking monsters could be closely related to us (given that one of the extras of the DVD states that they used to live in our world) and things like this. Once again I’ll later put up more detail on this topic unless someone beats me to it. Other potential topics include how scream/laughter energy may work. How portals/doors may work. How the scream extractor and CDA detection gear might work etc. You get the idea. Also technological stages- such as computers etc of the Monstrolpolis society (seems to be close to ours at the time of the movie in all honesty). Any leaps of faith we have to take in terms of believing the story’s universe (like the idea of monsters turning into versions of what they ate, another extra from the DVDs) are also on topic for this thread.

Some suggestions about general discussion.:

-This is a thread about SCIENCE. I am actually going to start another thread in which to discuss social issues (politics, legal issues and the CDA, potential religious beliefs, social status, the fact I am on the fence about the idea of racism and whatever existing in the monster world etc.). Well, this is therefore not a thread about social issues. This is a thread about scientific ideas, not social ideas. Please leave them for that thread if possible which I plan to create soon after posting this one.

-If you are citing an idea- please give HOW you came to this conclusion with EVIDENCE. For instance, you may have come to the idea due to a few scenes in the movie- state the lines and/or actions therfore along with you idea and/or show your thought process. This is ESPECIALLY important if you are using material not within the movie. State PRECISELY which material you used if so, with quotes. It is not fair if you just throw out an idea without an explanation. We don’t all have access to the same material after all in many cases. I myself only in fact have access to the bonus 2 DVD, so as you can probably imagine, this is kind of personally just so I don’t become/look like an idiot in this discussion.

-Please also state, as I have with the above Sulley quote, whether the source is canon or extended canon, to avoid confusion where potential contradictions arise (which sometimes happen). Full canon will always be worth more than extended canon, however extended canon can offer interesting insights so it is not worthless, it’s simply the rule of canon however than full canon overrides it and always will. In the case where two extended canon areas conflict, we can discuss which of them makes more sense. As far as I can tell canon is the movie, the extras of the DVD, and the books surrounding Monsters Inc handbooks both Pre and Post laughter energy conversion. EXTENDED canon are the comics, video games, manga etc. Please keep this in mind when arguing a point.

-Remember that we all have different levels of scientific background. My Physics education is basic for instance, but I’m willing to learn. My Biological knowledge is better, but we are all able to make mistakes especially in such a wide area. Ranging from Agriculture to Zoology (minus that is Sociology etc as already stated.) it is relevant however to this thread.

---

To get the ball rolling, here is something I raised over in Boggs Board- the idea that the monster world is the direct mirror of our own. A part of this comes from the fact we have Mike and Celia going to a Sushi restarurant called “Harry Hausens”

[i]“…I thought you liked Sushi.”

“Sushi?! Sushi?! You think this is about Sush-mmff?!”

- Mike and Celia, The movie: [canon].[/i]
Heh.

As well as the fact the cereal Boo is eating contains puffer fish apparently (extras on the DVD) suggest that they have some of the same non-sentient species we have, so is it possible that the Monster World is in fact in some cases the mirror of our own?

Also it could be stated therefore if this is so- they based their agricultural crops on wild species different to the ones our ancestors did, since some of their fruits and veg looks vastly different to ours (if you remember Tony’s ‘GROSSERY’, when Sulley and Mike head off to work.)

It seems too that they do not have any evidence of having anything akin to a dog either, so perhaps if they have wolves they never attempted to domesticate them at all, unlike us, and thu as a species, domestic dogs do not exist. Mike himself displays an inability to DEAL with dogs from a trailer we can see here which was in fact part of the sneak peak M.I trailer from Toy Story/Toy Story 2 two pack DVD set. (Canon status is debateable. But trailers are probably the same as movies/movie extras.) Where Mike demonstrates his uh ‘fantastic’ geography skills as well as giving a growl showing there is a dog in the childs bedroom:

youtube.com/watch?v=cvOQeozL4S0

Funny stuff. But is it simply Mike… being Mike (and a bit of a coward), or could it suggest that Monsters just do NOT have anything like dogs and are not used to dealing with them properly unless they are scarers? It could really go either way in all honesty. With only one example of course (and it being MIKE), it’s not exactly ‘evidence’ but it’s something which can be taken in that direction, and we honestly do not seem to see any evidence of anything like dogs in the Monster World so until further notice, it’s possible to suggest that there are none.

So due to the probable different decisions Monsters made in comparison to humans in terms of agriculture and domestication, there ARE going to be differences, even if they had more or less the same slate to work off of in the first place.

Plus, the fact Mike pretends to be something like Saturn/Uranus… perhaps they have their OWN version and OWN solar system just like ours?

It must also be stated they have at least conditions humans can survive at, and they can survive conditions which suit us (in the case of Boo getting in, and the fact that Scarers go into bedrooms), unsurprsing when monsters ARE from our world (extras on the DVD) but nonetheless, poetntially shows more similarities scientifically speaking.

So DISCUSS! Please remember my suggestions as listed above. I’ll be over here in the corner, trying to put together a social version of this thread, probably completely and utterly being a dork and geeking out as we discuss this. Because world exploration is AWESOME.

[pitbulllady]

There are apparently at least some of the same animals in the Monster World as in ours, though they may be different in some way. Boo ate cereal made with Puffer Fish, which are highly toxic IF not cooked and prepared properly, so perhaps the process(and you can be sure it was a BIG process, if cereal ingredients in the Monster World are anything liike ours)either de-toxified it, or their version of the Puffer Fish isn’t deadly like ours.

In the Simulation Room, which is decorated to look like a “typical” child’s bedroom in the Human World, there’s a mural of a cowyboy riding a horse-only THIS horsie has TWO heads! Either the horses that monsters are used to seeing are bicephalic, or the designers of that room had never actually seen a real horse, only children’s drawings of horses or toy horses(or maybe some other critter that they got confused with a horse), so they assumed that horses had two heads.

I also noticed the lack of pets in the movie. On any given street in an American city, walking to work in the morning, you’d see cats, you’d see people walking dogs, and stray dogs as well. Still, apparently there ARE pets of some sort, somewhere, and the concept of keeping pets isn’t foreign to them, otherwise Mike would not have specifically mentioned it when he said, "Oh, great-just what I always wanted, a pet that can KILL ME!" One of the Disney Bedtime Story Books had a short story in which it is revealed that while most monsters are cautious about dogs in the bedrooms of human children, Mike is genuinely phobic around dogs. The mere mention of a dog or seeing a toy stuffed dog makes him break out in sweat bullets. Of course, even in our world the concept of keeping pets, and of which animals are considered to BE pets, varies depending on where you go. Here in the US, most people think of cats and dogs when they think of pets and still find people like me, who prefer snakes, to be odd, to say the least. I’ve watched documentaries on tv and spoken to anthopologists who’ve been to many different part of the world, and realize this is not the case everywhere. One of my professors at the University of SC lived and studied in a part of Borneo for many years. People living in the villages there routinely encouraged huge Reticulated Pythons and King Cobras to live inside their homes. They treated these snakes as many of us treat our cats and dogs, as family members, buying them lavish silk beds to sleep on, giving them their own private rooms while everyone else slept together in one common bedroom, calling in a doctor if a snake got hurt or sick, providing them with fresh water daily in elaborately-decorated drinking bowls. Little kids played with these snakes, hugging them and even sitting on them while watching tv. Dogs, on the other hand, were considered dangerous vermin, and rabies WAS a real risk, one which they felt far outweighed the risk of being bitten by a venomous snake or constricted by a hungry python. Speaking of which, the pythons never WERE hungry, because they were provided with a steady diet of D-O-G. That is the only use for dogs these folks could think of-python food!

pitbulllady

[mentalguru]

Nice catch pitbulllady! I forgot really about Mike’s lines about ‘pets’, in a way and Sulley’s actions are also even evidence perhaps that they have some experience with SOME type of pet too now that I think more on it- I mean he did put newspaper in the corner for Boo, which suggests also perhaps that some knowledge into pet care exists. What pets they may have is of course is |(almost) anyones guess- what you said about people treating snakes that way in certain parts of the world was also fascinating.

It’s possible too, that different animals are extinct in the monster world that are living in ours- for instance, perhaps they don’t have the domesticated horse, and maybe even all their wild forms are extinct (rather like our woolly mammoth, perhaps they were even their favourite prey, though that sort of also depends on WHEN monsters discovered their own world perhaps too on a certain level, though perhaps not plus maybe they have more uh ‘exotic’ horses there though I doubt it for some reason). It would be amazing though if they still had species or the descendents of species WE killed long ago, and it would be possibly fascinating for THEM too if we had species they had slaughtered, when the fear of toxicity is perhaps killed completely and human sentience is fully realised. There’s got to be some monsters curious if the paranoia dies, and the fact there was two heads on the horse was also something I didn’t catch. Shows that perhaps that other than basic geography and what is important to know regarding risks of the child’s bedroom they perhaps don’t know a lot about our world at all! So thankyou! I could see Biologists in both sides regardless however being potentially fascinated whether it is or isn’t a mirror world. But the fact that they don’t seem to know that little human kids are no longer toxic (and they probably have not been toxic for a WHILE), perhaps their public medical/biological knowledge… isn’t up to scratch in certain areas. I mean you’d think SOMEONE would have blown the whistle on that, though it has to be said that social stigma can sometimes be a factor in this area among other things (but once again, this is technically the science thread).

But still wouldn’t it be interesting if humans and monsters met up- and it was found that while in terms of ENERGY and certain areas of physics monsters were more advanced, but WE were more advanced in medicine/biology? Granted however it is apparently canon monsters LIVE longer than we do (though could someone please cite the exact source for me with Waternoose’s age and what that age was?), so perhaps this shows the idea of other need being the mother of invention- they felt that avoiding humans was just the better way to go unless completely necessary when they began to die (in the idea where it was due to immune systems they no longer to so), but otherwise it was an area they never had to develop too much beyond the basic in their eyes for who knows what reason, perhaps normally nature more or less was the best way to go but the humans were something they couldn’t handle when they met them. Or perhaps the Waternooses are an incredibly unusual case- but even so their longivity is far more impressive than ours even accounting for that it seems.

Once again only having one example makes this hard, but still. Plus this is all just me thinking rather randomly on the subject all in all. So feel free to rip the idea or us being more advanced in (some areas of) biology apart if necessary. (This is what the thread is for after all!)

As for Mike’s phobia… mmm, perhaps there are WILD dogs at least anyway if not the pet kind, and he had some sort of bad experience with them, or has heard one too many stories on the subject. Possibly the concept of humans hanging out with dogs as something monsters know in general really terrifies him, and probably (in his head) is very apt and makes sense to him- ‘dangerous horrible creatures’ hanging out together! Probably his worst nightmare.

Of course, the idea of the monster world being our mirror too is just an idea I like, but it still is possible perhaps (but less so given the horse drawing… maybe) and holds for interesting possibilities in of itself.

Also it must be stated that Monstropolis regardless of what the Monster World being a mirror or not, is in a temperate area it seems- it is set in November, and we see the leaves on the trees as being typical of scenes we think of when we think of autumn too.

Plus it has to said that the time differences of Monstropolis are (probably) the twelve hour flip of the Eastern SeaBoard USA it seems as stated elsewhere, but it bears repeating here (It’s 9pm in the Eastern SeaBoard when it’s 9am in Monstropolis).

“Eastern Seaboard coming online…!”
Jerry, on the scarefloor: In the movie [canon]

This is also potential evidence in how the Narnia principle as mentioned before doesn’t work or apply- not to mention the fact that Boo almost sounds OLDER (even though we don’t see her) when Sulley meets her again a year later at the very end of the movie.

Plus I believe in another thread (please could someone confirm?), people in the company have night shifts in order to make full use of the time zones too (I believe it is in one of the employee handbooks- but could someone please find an exact quote?). Which wouldn’t make a lot of sense under the Narnia principle. They also have the same number of months and way of counting time/years- they have a 24 hour day (they start at 9am and end at 5pm like us if on the day shift), and a year of twelve months from Sulley’s CHART near the end of the movie just before he flips it over to look at Boo’s drawing.

So if they try and bring in a sequel where Boo is NOT older at all- basically they’ve rendered the whole thing as completely illogical. And it is therefore AU (Alternative Universe) canon. I’m afraid there are really no exceptions to this everyone, what we see in the movie shows this. The first (and at present only) movie is the ultimate canon we have to base off of, and even the sequel canon is thus subject to it indefinitly and always will be. It’s why the Boom!comics, for various reasons, isn’t only just extended canon, but even more so- it’s AU extended canon- because Boo remains (stubbornly) the same age as she was in most of the movie. In the sequel, Boo at the very least will be talking because in terms of her development in most of the movie events she is about two-and-a-half. She must be at least 3-and-a-half (going on four maybe) if a sequel comes, since Sulley’s chart also shows a year has passed, which is a big leap in child development.

[pitbulllady]

Yes, both the “M.I. Employee Handbook” and the “Essential Guide to M.I.” specifically mention that the factory employs people working different shifts around the clock; they’d have to, to keep up with energy demands, handle power outages, etc. It just so happened that the Scarers we actually saw in the movie were scaring on the Eastern Seaboard of the US, which was exactly 12 hours apart, in time, from the factory at that time.

Mike’s dog phobia could have resulted in a traumatic childhood experience with a dog or doglike animal, or he could have learned it from his parents(that is the source for most cases of ophidiophobia, or fear of snakes, by the way), or he could have developed it later as a result of hearing lurid tales(no doubt embellished) of terror brought back by Scarers who’d had unfortunate encounters with pet dogs in children’s bedrooms, or it might be just one of those unexplained phobias, as many are. Most people who suffer from a real phobia cannot actually account for what caused it in the first place and cannot ever recall NOT having having it.

I have to wonder about the monsters’ fear of human germs. The Scarers took no apparent precautions against this threat when they went into the bedrooms, even though you do not have to actually have physical contact with an infected person, in most cases, to contract a pathogen. Many viruses and bacteria are air-borne, and others live on environmental surfaces like walls and furniture, so mere contact with those, along with breathing the same air as a potentially-infectious child, would put the Scarers, and anyone THEY came into contact with, at risk, if the monsters could actually contract human diseases. They certainly seemed to believe that they could. Whether or not their immune systems had evolved sufficiently away from those of their human ancestors, to the point that they were at little to no risk of contracting human pathogens, is unknown, as is whether or not the Scarers and other monsters who had to enter the Human World and then return to theirs were required to take routine vaccinations againt airborne and other human pathogens, like people in our world who are routinely exposed to infectious diseases are.

Also, in the “Employee Handbook”, the risk to the Scarers’ health from exposure to the decibels of children’s screams is mentioned, along with the problems of hearing loss, tinitus, etc. that repeated exposure could cause, yet none of the Scarers wore any protective ear plugs to precent this, which would be required in any Human World factory in which exposure to loud or prolonged noises is part of the job.

pitbulllady

[Nexas]

looks up own database and picks a file
Waternoose’s age is never really given specifically. He did, however, supposedly inherit the factory from his father at the “tender” age of 142. Suggestibly he could live perhaps longer than that. Or…his father took quite a long while to hand the company over (living or dead).

[mentalguru]

Good point on the pathogens pitbulllady, I forgot about that, it seems as if the monsters primary fear is from physical CONTACT with them not to mention with their stuff than anything airborne primarily, which makes me wonder once again just how much knowledge they have medically speaking as well. It’s still possible they had that risk, and over time it decreased (or as you said, they are evolutionary speaking perhaps were already seperate enough to not be affected by human pathogens). Problem is humans can even infect chimpanzees which I believe in terms of TIME anyway ARE more distantly related to us than monsters are supossed to be (but could someone confirm this?), but then again, monsters may have evolved over time all the same in a different way we don’t know about, so it’s still possible.

It’s also possible the fear of humans is displacement on some level- perhaps the fear of humans was something else entirely related to the species (like adults, and perhaps the overprotectiveness of parents and the revenge they can extract… um yeah). Eventually- propaganda on both sides from monsters and humans and because of social norms and memes more or less getting out of control, then eventually after the ‘ancient’ and more ‘traditional’ fake/half truths they had of humans seemed foolish to them, so instead came up with something which… sounded more plausible to their ears for the modern times. Germs.

It’s REALLY hard to tell. It sort of crosses over into the social area as well a bit perhaps. Plus, shouldn’t it be enough to say that humans have a difficulty in accepting what is different? Thing is though once again crossing into social issues, the toxicity card is a good means of making sure monsters don’t get ‘too’ curious and expose the monster world (perhaps we should take this to the social thread later?). But it makes you wonder if there was once ANY truth to the whole toxicity thing, at least once upon a time.

Thanks Nexas for the age. Good information to have. That makes him OVER 142 in reality, almost twice the average human life expectancy. Plus, with Waternoose chasing Sulley, he’s not exactly… weak either. Makes you wonder just how long he’d live TO.

Plus, Sulley bent a PIPE.

So what about the various PHYSICAL abilities we see? Randall is FAST, he’s not a weakling at all (he can constrict himself to choke Sulley and kick someone of his weight to the side, granted Sulley was probably off balance and distracted/not aware of his position, but still). Randall can also BLEND which is probably a rare trait (we never see another SCARER with the ablility, and honestly wouldn’t you think it would be a useful ability for such a job as that particulary, so wouldn’t we see it more unless it was rare?) Sulley can bend pipes as mentioned and twist metal when Waternoose is banging at the door (probably part of it is due to his large body size but up to a certain point). Waternoose even at his age, is certainly no weak old guy!

I believe EXTENDED canon also even gives Celia some interesting physical strenghts (I believe?)

Granted this is apparently not true for ALL monsters. Mike probably could give a bite if he wanted with his big mouth (no bashing intended, PHYSICALLY he has a big mouth), but he’s not strong/fast nor does he have special abilities. Unlike with Randall/Sulley/Waternoose I would be fairly confident in a fair fight! Same with Fungus. So clearly these sometimes special physical attributes aren’t something all monsters possess at all *though once again, it could be argued that part of Sulley’s and Waternoose is due to size at a certain point). So what are your thoughts on this matter? It’s probably part of the ‘eating and becoming things’ ideal, but just what sort of trade offs and costs would a sentient being have to have with those attributes? (Especially Randall?) After all, everything has a cost.

[Nexas]

folds arms The Toxic Card (can’t believe someone other than me and Randall are using the term hehehe), in essence is “for the greater good”, of keeping monsters AWAY from Humans. As much of a lie as it is…I understand their reasons. Humans would kill monsters and vice-versa. It’s the difficulty of accepting the different, and fear of the unknown. It’s one of life’s truths. Sure, some can get along, but as a whole, they won’t.
Humankind itself has garnered an enemy in every time. The British, The Germans, The African Americans (that’s a biggy), and now Iran…people. No matter what a matter a differrance of opinion or downright looks, it will always be there. Monsters will be, to humans, another enemy to fight.
You honestly think Humans will let the power of scream be to just Monsters? Who established their whole industry and many lives around? Fat chance.

nods Your welcome.
Waternoose is indeed rather strong despite his age. He is also VERY well educated in business and the scare-industry. If you think he hadn’t even taken over the factory at that age, think of ALL that he’s seen or experienced, or learned.

Of course Randall at the time was also rather exhausted from work and was mainly working on adrenaline there. But needless to say, Randall has experience in fighting.
Sulley on the other hand just throws punches, literally. But he is very fit, thanks to Wazowski and the training, and very strong. Although wasn’t only Wazowski that contributed to that factor…but that was a long time ago.
Waternoose is best described as a wolf in sheep’s clothing (sorry wolves, just an expression). As in he appears old and inviting, but under the surface is coniving and aggressive. He seems to display a great fit of strength in him. (Even under NORMAL circumstances he was able to move and push Sullivan (though the “Metal Door”). Wazowski himself, although he is pretty weak, can hardly budge Sullivan. Even Randall when he’s not in “brawl mode”, just knocks him a bit (when he “accidentally” changed color when they ran into him). So apparently Waternoose might have the strength to rival Sullivan’s.)

nods Celia is quite fit herself, and is quite a runner. Apparently she and Mike won a seven-legged race at the company picnic the year before.

Wazowski probably didn’t worry much about his physical attributes (strength-wise. Style-wise he is concerned), as he had Sullivan to take care of that.

Oh please. Fungus can TALK people to death ^0^