Who was the rightful holder of the title of Top Scarer?

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#1

Who was the rightful holder of the title of Top Scarer at the Monsters, Inc. plant?

  • Sulley was actually Top Scarer, as stated in the film. His numbers were not doctored.
  • Randall was actually Top Scarer. Sulley’s numbers were doctored by Waternoose, due to favoritism. However, Sulley was unaware of this.
  • Randall was actually Top Scarer. Sulley’s numbers were doctored by Waternoose, due to favoritism, and Sulley knew all about it.
  • George Sanderson actually would have been Top Scarer. However, his numbers were continually brought down by jealous co-workers who planted human objects on him to attract the CDA.
  • Other

0 voters

Another controversial poll topic from the makers (well, maker) of the poll about Randall’s motivation during the door warehouse sequence :slight_smile:.

This time around, we’re addressing charges in various threads on this board that Sulley did not actually earn the title of Top Scarer, but that his numbers were doctored to make him Top Scarer due to his close, near-familial relationship with Mr. Waternoose. These charges further suggest that Randall was actually the rightful holder of the title.

Please note that there is a slight difference between Options #2 and #3, regarding whether or not Sulley knew about this alleged number doctoring.

#2

Interesting using the word “charges”.
sigh I had hopes but guess I have to learn sometimes heh heh…you do know that people will likely cast number 1 because they haven’t yet learned much about it…ahh well…guess some need more attention than others ahhh…

I humbly ask those voting to consider options of these “so-called “charges”” and note the previous poll discussions here, before casting their ballet…then again voting merely shows general opinion and not conrete evidence to support one’s own…agenda…

#3

To be fair to Sullivan, the lug had good scores on his scarer tests. He does have great scare potential in talent and, in same, physical bulk. Yes, I may dislike Sullivan because of his actions, but that does not limit my conviction.

However, and this…actually next to points that Randall was better and held the Top Scarer before…Randall trained Sullivan. Oh yes it is quite fact and canon or whatever that word is…actually without going further in that pretty much proves Randall was better. He taught Sullivan. Probably due to past relationship, he may not have taught Sullivan everything.
Sullivan used skills complimenting his own abilities, as well as handbook moves such as Waternoose’s Jump and Growl. Randall had his own skill and invisibility. He was already ahead to both keep his title and train on the side. The two can be put together in terms of scareing, with Randall’s stealth and silence complimenting Sullivan’s girth and loudness. But the fact of the matter is is that Randall was scarering to such a degree to be responsible for training others.
Sullivan may have been good, MAYBE good to beat Randall sometime, but the fact he kept the same spot for a year just doesn’t cut it.
A few pieces of evidence for Waternoose supplying.
Randall and Sullivan’s increases on the Score Board were very different, with Randall…ugh…been a bit…with a 65 or so increase and Sullivan with over 100. I am unsure how technology for scream conversion works. But if sound is an option…Sullivan’s roaring would disrupt any screams he would get. Randall, on the other hand, is more in stealth than screaming at a child, and in such, purer scream.
And when Randall got back on top again, AND when Waternoose “so happenly” comes onto the floor, Wazowski pulls off a Slumber Party door. That’s just too convienent.
And to add to that, in words, an assistant say’s to Wazowski “Hey Wazowski, good job…those numbers are pretty sweet”. Now WHY add that line? It’s SO insignificant? OR is it…?
Now to be fair in that Sullivan had no knowledge, as well as Wazowski, Wazowski returns with “Oh? Really? I haven’t noticed”. Though it was more of him being cocky I do believe, for once at least, he was honest.

sigh They don’t learn…they don’t…

#4

I thought one of the main points of the film was the irony that the scariest monster in the world is actually the nicest guy in the world, and vice versa. If Sulley is not actually the scariest monster in the world, that point is diminished, and if he is actually an inept Scarer, it’s lost entirely.

Several posters who proffer the view that Sulley is not Top Scarer go on to suggest that he is not second-best Scarer, or a really good Scarer, or even an average Scarer, but a completely inept Scarer, which I don’t buy. (Nexas, I’ve taken note of your comment above that you do not take the view that Sulley is a poor scarer :slight_smile: ). Those tanks do fill up, and Sulley has no problem scaring Boo while merely doing a practice scream for Waternoose.

I don’t think anyone will dispute the idea that Waternoose likes Sullivan, and I agree that many real-life bosses practice favoritism, however, I don’t see that as proof positive that that was what was going on in the film. It’s possible that Waternoose respected Sulley in the first place because he was a good Scarer.

On the idea that Randall is discriminated against because he’s the only lizard (I don’t actually remember whether or not there were any other lizard monsters working there, but I’ll believe the general consensus on that :slight_smile: ) : Randall has secured the #2 Scaring position in the entire company, over all of the other characters who allegedly discriminate against him, except Sulley. I didn’t notice any overt anti-lizard discrimination in the movie, but it’s possible that very subtle discrimination is supposed to be going on.

The more overtly shown inequality is that most (probably all) of the Scarers are large, while most of their assistants have apparently been deemed too small to be sufficiently frightening (personally, a green thing with one giant eye coming into my bedroom at night would scare me no matter what size it was! :slight_smile: ) Randall actually makes a fairly size-ist comment to Mike just after he scares him - “it scares little children and little monsters.”

Also, just thought it worth noting that I don’t think the filmmakers view Scaring - and thus, the Top Scarer position - in a very positive light, considering the scene where Sulley discovers what his scaring is actually doing on the video screens (to me, the most emotional scene in the film) and the idea that laughter is more powerful than screaming.

Nexas -

I agree that a poll such as this does not constitute concrete “proof” of anything. (You know my views on the filmmakers being the only ones who can designate what is canon :slight_smile: ) However, I believe it makes an interesting jumping-off point for discussion :slight_smile:.

I have no “agenda,” merely a boatload of ideas that I want to type up and post up here :slight_smile:

If monsters’ roars could generate power the same way as children’s screams, they wouldn’t need Scarers, they could just roar into a machine themselves. I assumed that the points were based upon the amount of energy in the canisters, and I assume the sound of Sulley’s roars would be irrelevant to that. Note that monsters’ laughter also does not cause power spikes the way Boo’s does.

I have not seen you cite a source yet for the idea that Randall trained Sullivan :slight_smile:.

Having been reminded from another post, I remembered why I thought that Waternoose had trained him - he says to Waternoose, “I learned from the best.” To me, this is meant to be flattering to Waternoose - not to Randall, who is not present, and whom Sulley would have no particular reason to flatter at that point, considering Randall’s attitude towards him. (Also, whoever originally trained Sully, at this point in the film, he is being trained by Mike, a point that often seems to be overlooked when comments are posted about Mike riding on Sulley’s coattails. While I agree that he does take advantage of Sulley’s position more than Sulley himself does, in a sense, the two are partners in Scaring).

I would say the line about sweet numbers was just a way of starting casual conversation between the two characters, so that attention could be directed towards George’s door leading up to the 2319 and the introduction of the CDA.

Why would Waternoose have to be on the Scare Floor in order to manipulate the competition? Couldn’t he do it from the comfort of his office? Isn’t who gets what door decided in advance, by who gets what key card? If so, couldn’t Waternoose have made certain Sulley got the slumber party key card without stepping on the scare floor at the precise moment it happened? Thus, does his presence on the Scare Floor really amount to “evidence” that he rigged the contest?

Another thing - the monsters probably know when the children will be in bed because children often have regular bedtimes, which are presumably the same every night. However, would they have any way of knowing in advance when and where there was going to be a unique event, like a slumber party? Does Waternoose have spies in the human world, who are aware that humans aren’t toxic, and report things like this to him? Unless, of course, that particular girl throws slumber parties constantly…

If you want to say that Waternoose did something on the Scare Floor to cause the door to appear, regardless of what key card Mike had - what did he do? Is there a remote control in his pocket that secretly controls the doors, but only works at short range, requring him to be on the Scare Floor when he presses it?

I think that Waternoose was probably there to show, “the boss is watching,” adding suspense to who would pull ahead in the competition.

Also, as I’ve stated before, I believe that the slumber party thing was a gag, (much like the “twins in the bunkbed” gag during the training sequence), and that it made Sulley pull ahead at that “convenient” moment, because (quote-unquote) “heroes” don’t prevail until the last suspenseful moment.

The Heavyweight Champion of the World is The Heavyweight Champion of the World only until someone beats him or until he retires. Then, no matter how long he held the title, he becomes the Former Heavyweight Champion of the World. (I sure hope I know what I’m talking about with this paragraph - sports metaphors aren’t usually my thing :slight_smile: )

Thus, whether or not Randall was a “better” scarer than Sulley overall, the title would pass to Sulley the second his numbers surpassed Randall’s - and vice versa, as we observe when Randall momentarily passes Sully on the board. (Wow, I used the phrase “vice versa” twice in one post without meaning to! :slight_smile: )

BTW, I have also not seen you cite any sources on the idea that Randall preceded Sulley as Top Scarer.

Also, I find it interesting that in other threads you have been completely forgiving of all of Randall’s actions, but you say that you don’t like Sulley because of his (and not that you simply don’t care for the character). To me, this sounds very similar to what you say that general movie audiences are doing - vilifying the character you don’t like in order to lionize the character you do.

It would seem that you’re arguing not for a view of moral ambiguity, where nobody is 100% “good” or 100% “bad”, nobody’s a “hero” and nobody’s a “villain” - but for a view of Randall is “good” and virtually everyone else is “bad”.

Just my thoughts :slight_smile:.

#5

I’m willing to shrug off the slumber party concept too since most of the points you brought up have also made me wary of that theory. However, you gotta wonder exactly how that scoreboard is supposed to work. Why is it that Randall manages to rack up a miserable amount of points when he has his own scream canister just as filled as Sullivan’s? Unless they measure points by the pitch of the child’s scream (such as a prolonged, higher pitched scream earning more points than a weaker scream or a yelp), there’s no reason why Randall or anyone else should be lagging behind if a monster is able to fill up a canister. If screams aren’t measured by their high pitch or by some other mean that I haven’t yet thought of, then I think it’s perfectly okay to assume that some rigging DID indeed go on, but only to the point of screwing around with the scores and nothing else. What you just pointed out makes plenty of sense (more so than Waternoose unexplicably knowing that there was a slumber party going on that day). That slumber party might have been a fluke that only helped Sulley boost his numbers even more, and then Waternoose couldn’t help but to go over and congratulate him on a job well done. It might have made his job of keeping Sully ahead of the pack that much easier, you know? Having the scores rigged so that only Sulley’s shot up dramatically might also help explain why the other scarers were so far behind the top two. It’s just the concept of there being such a big difference between the points that Sulley earns and what the rest of the scarers earn that I couldn’t help but notice.
But hey, that’s just my own humble opinion. You can take it or leave it. No pressure. :laughing:

#6

I voted ‘other’- simply because I don’t know.

I’ve always been suspicious of how Sulley’s scares do seem to be worth a lot more than any other Mon’s, as DoubleLatte said- Randall’s canister was just as filled as Sullivan’s, yet Sullivan’s scare was worth more.

Personally, I’m not sure if Sulley’s points were boosted, but I think the idea of Randall’s points purposefully being worth less is feasible. It’d be more of an attack on Randall himself, rather than being a roundabout jibe of making his worse enemy do better. The result would be the same, but I just feel that it’s more likely.

The whole slumber party thing seems to be quite a big coincidence, but hey, bigger coincidences have happened. I mean, I adore Randall to pieces, but I’m not going to make excuses for him. Sulley was undoubtably an amazing Scarer, and there’s no reason why he wouldn’t be at the top in a fair manner.

But, on the other hand, let’s spin it the other way- say that Sulley was a pretty good Scarer, but nothing amazing. I’m sure there would still be a lot of bad feeling between Sulley and Randall nonetheless, right? So, Waternoose picks up on this and realises just how much it would frustrate Randall for Sulley to be at the top. Randall being pissed off = Randall being ever more desperate to prove himself to everyone else = Randall working even harder on the SE to make it something great.

So, Waternoose rigs the numbers, Sulley slowly rises to the top. Other people would explain this by saying that Sulley is now more experience, has developed his own unique technique, et cetera, since I’m sure it’s not as though once a Scarer’s been trained, they’re either rubbish or great- it’s likely that Scarers improve with practice and experience.

It’s just an idea. I can’t completely back it up, though I guess it’s possible to manipulate other things round to this viewpoint. For example, the whole ‘trained by the best’ remark that Sulley made to Waternoose has always seemed sort of suspicious to me. If Sulley had meant it as a real compliment to Waternoose, why are the two of them nodding away and looking at each other like that, and why’s Waternoose wagging his finger at Sulley in that sort of ‘I know what you’re talking about but it’s a secret between the two of us’ sort of way. It’s like it has a double meaning or something. Honestly, if Sulley said it in a sort of, really appreciative obvious complimentary way, I wouldn’t mention it. But the look they’re giving each other…Either they’ve got a secret, or they’re like a couple or something. :laughing:

And, finally, concerning whether there’s any specism against Randall- there are a few cases of it in the film, though they’re not really obvious. Mike calling Randall ‘Lizardboy’, for a start, is pretty darn offensive. I’m not gonna be all PC about this, but Mike could’ve called Randall any number of names without it referring to the way he looks. The locker room scene, too; it always struck me as such a weird thing for Mike to say ‘I have allergies’. Well, allergies to what, exactly? I mean, what he’s basically implying there is that the reason he leapt away from Randall is because he’s allergic to him. A little strange.

I’ll admit, maybe it’s because Mike really annoys me that I notice these things. But I do try to be passive on that side, but when Mike slams Randall’s fronds in a door and yells, ‘I hope that hurt, Lizardboy!’, I just can’t help but see this as a jibe at how Randall looks.

Of course, there isn’t any real proof for anything I’ve mentioned. Just seems weird to me that a single Scarer could stay at the top for so long. And why is ‘Employee of the Month’ judged by who is the Top Scarer? Surely that kind of thing is always judged by who put the most effort into improving that month, or something more on those lines. It just seems like another way to big Sulley up.

#7

Everything you said is pretty much a summary of my own thoughts, Lizardgirl. It’s obvious-not just implied, but stated outright-that Sulley and Waternoose had a close relationship, much closer than mere employee/employer. You don’t just tell any guy you work for that he’s “been like a father to you”, now do you? Nor do supervisors confide such things to mere employees like their concern at losing a company that’s been in their family for 3 generations.

As for anti-lizard or anti-reptilian sentiment, that’s pretty obvious, too, when Mike calls Randall “Lizardboy”. Back a few years ago, when most of my students, most of whom are Black, could actually remember watching this movie, many of THEM were angered by that term, and found it racist, which is what got ME to thinking that it was. Here in the South, in the not-so-distant past, it was common for White people to call a Black man “Monkey Boy” or just “Boy”, as a term of disrespect, implying the widely-held belief that Black people were more closely related to animals, and therefore not fully human. It was a means of putting down someone by de-humanizing them. With his slur of “Lizardboy”, Mike does the exact same thing-implies that Randall is more of a lower animal, and therefore not as advanced as the other monsters, because of what he looks like. I doubt that Mike just came up with that right there in the Door Vault, either, but had probably used it before, long before he ever considered Randall to be a threat. Every behavior we see in the monsters in this movie mirrors exactly human behavior we see here in OUR world, which is one of the reasons that so many people like this movie so much and can relate to the characters. We know that among humans, anyone who is perceived as “different” is frequently ostracized and put down by others, and is often feared. Fear, as we know, often leads to hatred, which fuels more fear. Randall is the ONLY scaly and reptilian monster in the entire movie, not counting Celia Mae’s “hair”, which aren’t separate and individual monsters on their own. No other one character, either a major character or someone just seen in the background, has scaly skin or has a very unique ability like Randall’s ability to “blend”. Assuming that monsters treat those who stand out as being “different” in the same way that humans do(and there’s no reason to assume that they wouldn’t, “fictional” status notwithstanding), Randall most likely has experienced some degree of what can only be called racism for most of his life. There’s plenty of evidence that monsters revere being large and being furry, including those ads in Roz’s magazine for bulking up and growing hair, so that seems to be the model of perfection by which all others are judged. Here in the Human World, actual case studies have proven that people who are perceived as being attractive are usually much more successful on their jobs and more popular, than those people who aren’t, and a long, thin, hairless SCALY monster, who is apparently an oddity in his world, would obviously not be perceived as attractive by other monsters. If that sort of prejudice existed in the Monster World, then most monsters, upon seeing Randall for the very first time, never even hearing him speak or seeing him do anything, are automatically going to judge him as untrustworthy, unpleasant, uncouth and basically unevolved, and if they knew of his ability to blend, something that really was unique and strange, then that would reaffirm to them that he’s little more than some animal, hardly worthy of being called a “monster” at all, and no matter what he does, it’s not going to change some minds. That would definately affect Waternoose’s decision, even on a subconcious level, to make sure that Randall did not top his Favorite Scarer, since that would look really bad for not just Sulley, but all other “normal” monsters.

Consider this-since it is clear that Pixar wanted us to believe from the get-go, or at least after being told by Michael Eisner at Disney that this movie needed a villain(besides the CEO of a large corporation, which he apparently took issue with), WHY was the one reptilian character chosen to fill that role? Why not a lesser-known character who was furry, or slug-like, or one of the little oblong things like Fungus, of which many appear in the movie? I’m still willing to bet that if someone did a test showing of pivotal scenes in that movie, in which everything remained the same, but in one version, Randall’s character was a furry, fluffy creature with big anime’ eyes, and in another, he’s exactly as he’s seen in the movie-a scaly reptilian, and then viewers were asked to rate which version they found more threatening or villainous, they’d pick the reptilian one. As soon as a reptilian character is introduced, it’s just about a foregone conclusion that we’re supposed to find him abhorrant, untrustworthy and just plain bad, is it not? Now TELL me that isn’t prejudice in an of itself!

pitbulllady

#8

It’s great you all have theories, but it’s a movie so there’s no way to know for sure. Obviously Sulley had the best numbers and they weren’t doctored. I think you are all over analizing this. My favorite Pixar movie is Monster’s Inc., so i’ve watched it many, many times, and I don’t think the director meant for Sulley to be a controvertial figure. Pete Docter said he wnated the characters to feel like they have a back story but this is just too much. This conspiracy is just ruining the movie, in my opinion at least.

Animagusurreal- Why make these controversies, they are ruining the movie.

P.S.- Randal is a villain and the people at Pixar choose the most villanous creature, so it worked. Randall always underperformed why does that have to be Waternoose’s fault.

#9

martini- This is just my opinion, of course, but I personally think that these lively discussions actually make the movie come to life even more! I understand that some people are happy to accept that what happened in the film is what happened- no more, no less. But the thing is, that somehow, Pixar have managed to create a ‘villain’ that people truly care about. The emotions displayed in the film, although they are of ficticious characters, were real emotions that the people at Pixar wanted to convey. And if we don’t want to take things for face value, then I believe that it is our choice.

Of course, you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m pleased you’ve expressed it- that’s what posting is for. :smiley:

As for Pixar having chosen ‘the most villainous creature’, that is something that I will disagree with. It is true that lizards and reptiles generally are viewed by most of society as being ‘evil’ and ‘lesser’, but that doesn’t actually mean that they are. They are not any more ‘villainous’ than a kitten. But they are percieved to be more villainous, which is, yes, probably why Pixar made this decision. And let’s not forget that Waternoose was the real villain in all of this. :wink:

The predominant reason why we’re implying that it might be Waternoose’s fault is simply because there are some suspicious things in the film that do point in that direction. I’m not saying it’s entirely true, of course, but as Pixar have said many times- all the things, right down to every single little detail, is considered by Pixar and thought out. So, why would they make such elementary mistakes such as both Randall and Sullivan’s canisters filling right up, yet Sullivan’s one being worth more?

Once again, it’s entirely up to you what you think of these interpretations. :smiley:

#10

Once again I didnt read that much into it. It was kinda funny that Randall’s numbers didnt seem to match up to Sully’s but to me that was just it, funny, amusing, not doctored and that was that. I didnt really think about it. Plus I only saw that happen once, unless i’m not paying enough attention. I figured Sully was on top because he was truly the best at it.

#11

Animagusurreal

Oh yeah Sullivan’s nice in sentencing a person to death yeah heh.

I’m being fair there.

Oh yes of course heh.

Being that Randall is credited so much as being the “villain”, and the fact many religious beliefs and many humans consider reptiles evil or disgusting, only natural that they are considered minorities in the world.

Morely a comment toward his practical joke heh.

Oh yes laughter…it will make children SO much eaiser to confront their fears…

Heh…perhaps…

Heh…maybe…

True, which makes Scare intank very curious to modern scientists. Is it based on volume or not? Since there is little research on this at the time, it can be considered that a full canister equals the same point increase.

Heh…I can…though it would devestate you because it’s shown as canon from “the filmakers” heh. Funny, for such claiming thought you at least knew that.

Waternoose is also part of the training crew, as well as Roz. And Randall was next to Sullivan’s station, whom recently exited his door and was looking right at the two. Mike trains Sullivan to be fit and on his toes. Mike morely enjoys being in Top Scarer position, although it’s not relatively his, and wants to keep Sullivan up in the ranks.

Haha…maybe so…

Folders. To be Scared and Scared…Waternoose can easily have slipped “trump cards”, literally actually", into Sullivan’s folders while he was scaring, and Wazowski was monitoring the scream tank.

Perhaps so. How do they match, as in the commercial, each scarer up to particular humans to produce better scream? Now that adds to the fact there’s more beneath the surface.

Hahaha…I stated above. A remote control heh…don’t humor me with that.

Oh to think that.

Heroes don’t always win…

The title does switch, but I see no point here.

Hahah…well he is indeed a veteran…guess one time I’m gonna have to tell ya…

Wrong. Like with saying Sullivan was indeed skilled at Scarering, Randall has done some stupid stuff. Everybody does stupid stuff. He tried to kill Sullivan, and if he had, sure, he would get something. In the end, sure, Randall deserved some sort of verdict…but the fact it was Banishment, sorry, EXHILE, to a place where he could die, and not executed by a jury, was not something to be forgiven in Sullivan’s favor. Everyone deserved something to amend for.

Your thinking wrong, no wonder heh…such inexperience…

Doublelatte

Good point in adding the drastic differences there for the other Scarers compared to Sullivan.

LizardGirl

Well either way there something was going on.

Still not fesible.

Lizard Girl had just put on a point which I was to make. The REASON BEHIND Randall and the SE. Good call.

Well maybe so…but I can be fair in saying Sullivan still was oblvious.

True. Not to mention “boy” is used allot against African Americans years ago in slavery.

Well to be honest, probably just said that so he wasn’t surprised by the joke.

Well Sullivan does have the “favortisim” from fellow workers and the boss.

Pitbulllady

True true. Good points.

Good point.

Martini833

Well maybe so, but your looking at the movie in terms of entertainment, which is fine, but getting to the core of the matter is what some others want, and defend…

P.S. You probably dislike snakes…just my guess…

Lizard Girl

Some are content, other’s just aren’t.

Bit of Racism proven there, but Pitbulllady can correct me on the right word heh.
Yes again, something obvious.

Heh heh…as said knew 1 would be ahead…how sad…I honestly hoped some people would learn…sigh guess I’ll have to pull out the big gun…

#12

Sorry guys. I didnt wnat to sound like that
everyones entitled to their opinion :slight_smile:

#13

Thanks, everyone, for your responses :slight_smile:

Just wanted to make a general comment on seeing things in art (including films, such as “Monster’s Inc.” ) -

Sometimes, when I show people my own artwork, they see exactly what I intended. Other times, they see symbolism for all kinds of things that I didn’t intend at all. Once, I showed someone a picture I had drawn of a cute, innocent little baby dragon and they asked me, “is that supposed to be the devil?”

Another time, I turned in a poem in English class, and the professor said to me, with authority, “you’re trying to imitate e.e. cummings, aren’t you?” He was pretty much positive about it.

At that point in time, I had never even heard of the poet e. e. cummings, much less read his poetry, much less tried to imitate him. Any similarity to his style that my professor saw in there was a genuine coincidence.

Of course, this works both ways, and sometimes someone might see no symbolism in something where symbolism was actually intended.

I think the fact that people can see artwork in many different ways actually one of the beautiful things about it :slight_smile:.

Back to the Top Scarer topic -

I must admit, the numbers are suspicious, but I won’t consider that proof until I know what the points system is. (I don’t remember it being discussed in the movie.)

I think that they have Sulley as Employee of the Month every month and have him hold his Top Scarer title in the Scare Floor scene in order to show how well things are going for him, how successful he is - so that all of that can be threatened by the appearance of Boo, and so he can eventually come to see that success as meaningless compared to protecting Boo (“None of that matters now.”)

Also, I see a lot about how Waternoose has always treated Randall poorly, and I’m wondering how we know that. By the time we see them together (or the earlier scene where I’ve read that we can hear them talking to each other), Waternoose could be blaming Randall (perhaps unfairly) for losing track of Boo in the first place, or for later abducting Mike instead of Boo, and that’s why he’s so angry at Randall in that scene. It’s possible he treated Randall just swell before that.

Another possibility is that Waternoose disdains the Scream Extractor - his primary motivation seems to be upholding tradition, so while the SE is necessary to keep the “family business” afloat, he probably prefers the long-standing tradition of Scaring, and he may also disdain anyone involved with the SE, (despite that he himself is involved). So, again, it’s possible that before Randall’s involvement with the SE, he treated him the same as any other employee.

Lizardgirl -

That’s a very interesting theory, with good attention to character motivation :slight_smile:.

I still interpret that scene as flattery of Waternoose. I don’t see any kind of secret between them there.

Pitbulllady -

On the theory of “normal” monsters - were there any two monsters who truly looked alike in this film (except maybe some of the CDA)?

Wasn’t that giant Godzilla-like monster who Mike and Sulley say good morning to on their way to work a reptile? (I don’t remember whether or not he was visibly scaly.)

If being furry is so revered, why isn’t George Sanderson higher than Randall on the Scarer scale? (See Option #4 :wink: )

If Randall is so openly and obviously prejudiced against by most workers at Monster’s Inc., then why does everyone gather around to congratulate him when Celia announces that he broke the All-Time Scaring Record?

BTW, are there any other crustaceans like Waternoose in the film? (I don’t remember seeing any.)

I didn’t see that ad, but again, your comment about bulking up comes back to “size-ism,” something which the diminutive Mike has probably come up against, but for which he seems to garner no sympathy from the people who sympathize with Randall - the guy who made the size-ist comment about Mike.

I forgot about that line, but it never occurred to me that “lizard boy” was a racist comment, and I really, really, really don’t think the filmmakers intended for it to be. I think it was actually intended to be innocuous, because it probably didn’t occur to them that anyone would interpret “lizard” as a race (of course, this is all my speculation).

Let me say that personally, I like lizards (there are several small wild lizards living in our backyard, who seem to like to hang out on top of a small ceramic crocodile we have out there). I would be just as accepting of a reptilian hero as I would a furry hero. The fact that some people can’t stomach the idea of a rat hero in “Ratatouille” actually surprises me, though of course, they’re entitled to their opinion.

I do find Randall’s slinking movements and shifty eyes creepy - delightfully creepy :slight_smile:.

I don’t know whether general audiences would find a fuzzy, cuddly Randall more sympathetic than a scaly one, but I’m sure that his yelling and grumpiness also play a role in their finding him less than sympathetic.

Nexas -

The point of mentioning that the title switches is that the topic of this poll is whether or not Sulley was boosted into the position of Top Scarer, not who was the “best” scarer overall, as you seemed to be trying to prove by mentioning how long you claim Randall had been on the job.

We seem to have a bit of a communication gap :slight_smile:. The point was not that “heroes” always win, but that, when they do win, it’s typically at the last possible moment, to prolong the suspense - thus, the slumber party happening at the last possible moment.

This is really veering off into another topic, but I’ve already typed this :slight_smile::

How exactly does Sulley sentence Randall to death? Are you telling me that Randall, with all of his abilities, can’t escape from two measly humans with a shovel? That he can’t be at least as bright as Sulley in finding another doorway back to the monster world?

Did Sulley show a little vengefulness towards the guy who just tried to kill him twice and who repeatedly took a child for whom Sulley had basically parental feelings? Yeah. Nobody said Sulley was a saint, and while revenge generally comes to no good in real life, it can be enjoyable to watch in a film. Was it vigilantism? Yes, in real life, it would have been. I suppose Sulley could have placed Randall under citizen’s arrest and called the CDA, and come off better “morally.” But, cinematically, I think that would have been less interesting, less funny, and a less fitting exit for a character as great as I think Randall is. Not to mention that Randall is resourceful and determined enough that unless they really got him out of their world, he would probably have slipped free and continued trying to recapture Boo before they were able to get her home (as you agreed in the other poll, IF Randall was trying to take her there too, they certainly didn’t know it).

Now, let me explain why I think that scene is funny - it’s unexpected. People are supposed to go “Ahhhhh! It’s a monster! Run for your lives!” When, instead, they go, oh so casually, “Mama - 'nother gator got in the house,” that’s funny. However, I understand how it wouldn’t be funny to someone viewing the scene from your point of view.

I’m just curious - would you have preferred if the film ended with Sulley and Mike in jail for false banishment and Randall in jail for attempted murder and illegal scientific experiments?

I do have to say, though, that I appreciate that you said “Everyone deserved something to amend for,” and not just Sulley :slight_smile:.

On Scaring being better for children than Laughing - I feel that you’re arguing with the filmmakers on this one, not me. I thought the end of the film was intended to be a “happy ending.” I know laughter is good for people, but I don’t really know which would be “healthier” for the children in the movie in the long run. Perhaps seeing that something that’s supposed to be scary - a monster - is actually funny might help them overcome their fears in a different way, or might make them more understanding of things that are generally presented as scary (like reptiles).

Several people in my life have claimed that my upbringing was too “soft”, and I was once told by a co-worker, “I feel sorry for you, Brent, 'cause you didn’t have no brothers to beat you up. My brothers beat me up when I was a kid and it made me tough.” A few weeks later, I found out he was fired for telling off a supervisor.

If I had a kid, and that kid asked me if a monster was going to come out of their closet, I wouldn’t try to scare them in the hopes that it would make them stronger.

[JOKE]

And now, let’s take a moment to ponder Option # 4…

Don’t you think it’s a bit of a coincidence that the sock appears on George Sanderson’s back immediately after he says that he’s on a roll? What is the significance of that line? Could the sock have been planted there by somebody who wanted to bring that roll to a halt? Also, we don’t see the sock until he turns - after he’s already out of the door - so how do we know that it actually came from the kid’s room? Randall, with his invisibility ability and his knowledge that human items aren’t really toxic could have easily planted on the sock on Sanderson’s back as Sanderson came through the door.

I’m just sayin’…:smiley:

[/JOKE]

#14

animgusurreal- The whole Sanderson thing can be interpreted in two ways. If we go down the path that says, ‘yes, the Scare Board points were doctored’, then the reason for Sanderson not being higher up than Randall is simply because Randall being in second place would make being Top Scarer seem so close, yet so far. It’s like teasing Randall- giving him something, then taking it away from him. For more than just Sulley to be above Randall would just make Randall a lot less desperate, because being Top Scarer would be less likely. Having Randall’s number one enemy just ahead of him effects him more.

And if the points weren’t doctored, then Sanderson isn’t higher simply because he isn’t as good a Scarer.As for the whole sock thing, I think that that sort of just had to happen to one of the minor characters in the beginning of the film in a cinematic point of view- this scene introduces the CDA and shows an example of a Scarer being decontaminated. It seems like exposition for the audience more than anything.

Your idea that Randall put the sock on Sanderson is very amusing, (it would make a great one-shot fic :laughing:) but then begs the question, ‘why didn’t Randall just put the sock on Sulley, since he’s the Scarer that’s actually in front?’ And the answer to that is probably that although Randall can be called a lot of things- creepy, sneaky, etc., one thing I believe is that he does not in any way support the idea of cheating. I mean, the way he reacted when Wazowski implied that Randall had been cheating was an absolutely priceless moment- that look on his face was of pure astonishment and you could tell how insulted Randall felt by the insinuation. And then later on in the film, when Celia says that Randall has broken the Scare Record to slow Randall down, you can hear him indignantly saying, “No I did NOT!”

And one last point- concerning the end of the film- although it makes me really upset whenever I see that scene, I honestly wouldn’t have it any other way. I don’t think it would be easy for Randall to get back to the Monster World simply because it’s not the case that he wouldn’t be able to, but more whether or not he would want to. A week or two in the Human World, finding his way back to civilisation to get through a kid’s closet door, leaves a lot of spare time to think about what he’s done. Would he really want to return to a world where he has no real home and no real friends?

(Sorry for any horrible spelling mistakes in this post- the layout of the posting page was seriously messed up and I couldn’t see half of what I was typing. :laughing: )

#15

[JOKE]

That’s because Sulley and Randall were actually in cahoots :slight_smile: - the rivalry was just a front to distract from their joint number doctoring and human object planting schemes to keep both of them so far ahead of the other Scarers (Randall graciously agreed to be #2 scarer in this scheme, since the other monsters would be less suspicious of “nice guy” Sulley as #1, and would derive too much satisfaction from watching his “frustration” at being #2 to suspect him).

Then again, perhaps they were partners in an even more elaborate scheme: drawing Waternoose into the Scream Extractor idea so he would eventually incriminate himself and they could take over the company. Part of this scheme was creating a scream shortage - Randall, actually a gifted comedian, would go into the children’s rooms beforehand and crack jokes, so that when the regular Scarers arrived, the kids would just laugh at them (it was only later that Randall realized the laughs themselves could be used as power and came up with the idea for the Laugh Floor.) The scream shortage was only increased by constant visits from the CDA, caused by planting human objects on the monsters. Waternoose, convinced that traditional Scaring would be too difficult to continue, was spurred to develop the Scream Extractor at all costs, eventually leading to his downfall.

As to the evidence of Sulley’s involvement, note that the other time Sanderson gets a sock on him is immediately after Sulley brushes past him coming back through the door from the human world.

Sulley “intercepted” Boo in order to prevent Randall from having to actually use the fake “Scream Extractor” technology they had pretended to develop, lest Waternoose would discover that it didn’t really work. Note that Sulley conveniently saves Boo just before the machine begins to extract her screams. This also kept Waternoose from suspecting that Sulley and Randall were actually working together,

Sulley pretended to banish Randall so he wouldn’t be arrested by the CDA along with Waternoose. Mike, oblivious to the whole scheme, was the witness to Randall’s “banishment.” However, arrangements were made for Randall to return later, once the heat was off, simply altering the “regular” color of his scales and assuming a different identity, to become Sulley’s business partner. And if Mike ever got suspicious, Sulley could always turn him to the CDA in for illegally reconstructing Boo’s door…

[/JOKE]

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

#16

animagusurreal

Interesting use.
*
Still being researched that is. Volume perhaps? Who knows. But perhaps the fact that canisters have a limit, as seen laughter needed much bigger ones, at least proposes something.

Interesting concept.

I highly doubt that…we don’t see Waternoose congradulating Randall when he got back on top at all, or at any time for his hard work on the Extractor.

Perhaps beforehand. Though he probably saw Randall as the perfect patsy for…several reasons heh.

Funny enough I agree with that. They may be secret keeping something not big, that Waternoose respects Sullivan, but nothing too huge or the like.

Deviants from the line are shown. Take George, Sullivan and…Sanderson…I think…can’t recall much for Sanderson’s…are from similiar variants in the monster gene. Both have similiar fur and designs, apart from George having a nose horn and Sullivan from having classical horns.
To me, I think the tentacle variation is another common, such as Charles Snitch and several other tentacles.

Actually I believe that may have been a chicken of somesort. When Sullivan yells up to him, Ted, he does a chicken noise.

Your taking her disussion in the wrong fashion, like several. Furry is simply the common stature around the Monster World. Think of the normal…“white” variation of humans for instance.

Simple. Riding coattags. Scarers, and assistants, merely ride the fame. Take Wazowski for instance. Thanks to being Sullivan’s friend, he got reservations for Harry Hausen’s, which is “impossible to get reservations from there” according to Celia. Merely thought as the “popular one”.

Little in the film, however, Waternoose is the third in his generation, meaning he has an extended family, with a father and grandfather of equal decent, so that morely proves that there are others.
As for Randall…mentioning of his parents, or any other family, is never told.

Unsure about the bulking bit.

Well the fact of adding Lizard and Boy together form the similiar racist term N…N…I won’t say it but it’s similiar to a country’s name…and the word Boy is just too much of a coincidence.

Well well…I’m sure Mitch disagrees with such opinions heh.

Good save with delightfully…

All results of what he was pulled into.

Heh heh.

I pretty much do not see beating a co-worker a hero V.S. villain situation heh heh…

Heh…I do give Randall his credit, however, and Pitbulllady will/have add to this, the door Randall was sent through pretty much presents that Sullivan and Wazowski had little care about him. Intention of them, though Sullivan probably later regrets, was simply to get rid of him (Why the hell smash the door if it’s light was already broken…that’s just overkill).
Randall of course would have gotten away…but…badly…injured…

How would Randall had known Sullivan had “parental instincts” for the child? He didn’t, plain and simple.
Unlike Waternoose, Randall was pleading at the end there. At least listening to what he had to say would at least give Sullivan some justifiance…but he did not…

True…I don’t show disdane towards those who laugh at the scene. As long as they know that they are laughing mainly for the words instead of the action’s after-math, no quarrel.

Illegal scientific experiment? Ha…funny.
And ending I’d prefer? Well lets see…well the first bit there would be wrong since if they “banished” him, he wouldn’t go to jail.
What I’d prefer is to see Waternoose locked up. Sullivan and Wazowski would have learned from Randall’s actions. And with Randall, being on the inside, they produce the evidence to cease Waternoose’s present and future actions.
Without Randall to testify against him, Waternoose currently will probably get off less than what others would want.
The end result?
Waternoose - Jail
Sullivan/Wazowski - Free
Randall - Having testified, less crime. Depends if Sullivan charges Randall with accounts. Randall may have gotten some form of degree more or so community service. His fate really depends on several factors.

That just shows that even though I’m a Randall-Fan, I don’t count out to be limiting in my comments.

Interesting view. Ones like Randall for instance (one thing to consider, is several training and employeed scarers might get laid off if they don’t consider the switch, though the possibility of Laugh and Scare floors is possibly) would argue mainly for tradition sake.
Though gradual scareing of kids has, as stated in the film, left them less scared, and in some ways, immune to their fears.

Unsure about the joke, but I will defend.
At the time, seen, Randall was consintrating on trying to beat “cheating Sullivan” (note, Sullivan was unaware of the “help”, though…Randall might have been unaware that Waternoose was helping Sullivan as well) by showing his own scareing prowess.
George was IN his door at the time. Though the sock could have been planted…but then again, since Randall’s ruled out, someone would have to be relatively tall to put it on. Doubt Snitch would do it, nor Sullivan. So most likely it was attached somehow.

Lizardgirl

Good point perhaps, introducing the C.D.A. and the fact that Monsters Inc.'s “accidents” has been mentioned a few times.
Sanderson may not be relatively good at scareing. Take Bile for instance, the trainee, he does have skill, but makes simple mistakes.

GOOD POINT. Was going to mention the bit with Wazowski, but nearly forgot the second bit.
This is a form of what Randall “TRUELY” was before being dragged into the Extractor business. He doesn’t like cheaters and doing it so himself.

shrugs In terms of my own ending-want, I suppose Randall gaining time to reflect may be good…though honestly wished in a better position.

animagusurreal

Nice joke heh…actually the original script had those two as friends well…to a sort of degree…hmm…funny…the original script had Randall as Top Scarer…how peculiar…
But outside that…

By joe…that would actually be a hilarious fic heh…at least you don’t show Randall negatively in THIS bit…

#17

Personally, I prefer animagusurreal’s version of this movie. =P

This is true. And we also never see another monster with the body build of Ted’s, a gelatinous monster like the one who got sucked down the sewer; another limbless, crossaint-like monster like Marge, another crustacean like Waternoose (animagusurreal’s), or another monster who sports snakes on her hair. The monsters we saw in this film varied in every single bit of build, colors, shapes, and abilities. Not one of them looked identical or shared the same abilities as another to truly consider making diversity an issue. I think the racism bit stems from different POV’s and life experiences, and from this, I can understand why someone who IS a minority in this world would find anything that would even remotely resemble a racial slur (or interprets it as such) offensive. I personally did not find any form of prejudice displayed towards Randall for being a reptile on behalf of his co-workers. Again, whether someone sees it depends heavily on personal life experiences to be able to pick up on something such as “lizardboy” and interpret it as offensive.

So if Randall’s blending ability sets him apart from the rest, does not wanting a firebreather as a roomate, as the company bulletin ads in the DVD extras read, constitute as a form of racism because firebreathers are “different”? Just curious.

#18

Course, it’s simple.

Taking out Waternoose, as he’s already explained, there are others with simularties. Like said, George and Sullivan are in the Furry category, as well as others to them and Tentacles.
Well unlike other “singlers”, one seems to be taking most of the bad rap.

Racism can go in several ways. African Americans are probably credited with the highest bit. In terms of the firebreather, sure. Though some places may be fit to include their abilities. But in terms of racism, firebreathers can be argued as how arabians are regarded by most western races, as terrorists. Though I’m going too far into such things that I’d rather not touch on.

#19

I voted that Sulley was the rightful top scarer.

#20

Doublelatte -

Thanks! :smiley:

I agree with you about personal life experiences affecting how we view this film - or anything, really.

Nexas -

Thanks for the nice comments on my joke :smiley:.

Why badly injured?

Mike sprays himself in the eye with disinfectant, has his fingers smashed in Roz’s window, gets bit by one of the day care monster kids, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don’t recall at the moment. Sulley is beaten and nearly strangled by Randall. Neither seems to have any long lasting ill effects. Despite this being an advanced and emotional animated film, it does go in for some of what might be called “cartoon” humor - nothing wrong with a little of that, IMHO, it’s the heritage of animation :slight_smile:. (However, I don’t care for it when it dominates the film, as in “Open Season” and other such films).

Not to mention that I imagine monsters would be more resilient when it comes to injury than humans.

I think the point the filmmakers were trying to make was that human kids were not so much “immune” to fear from the “violence on television” - depicted as the reason behind the scream shortage in the company’s TV commercial - but numb to it (the kid falling asleep).

Yes, bringing a child into the monster world (and presumably any experiments involving doing so) are depicted as illegal in the film. Waternoose is arrested by the CDA for confessing it.

Pretty good conclusion - perhaps this still happened. For all we know, the CDA could venture into the human world and retrieve Randall.

BTW, Randall seemed to derive a great deal of pleasure from watching Mike and Sulley get banished for nothing more than accidentally stumbling upon Waternoose’s scheme. (Randall opened the door himself! :slight_smile: ) They didn’t really have time to “plead,” but I think they said “NOOOOO!” or something to that effect.

On the idea that Waternoose isn’t a minority because he has parents - don’t all monsters have parents? Even if you want to say that Randall never knew his parents because he never spoke of them in the film and doesn’t have a “III” on his name (in which case, the same would go for most of the characters in the film, including Boo, who never says “mama” or “dada”) Randall must still have had some sort of parents, and they would presumably have been reptiles, as well.

Having a father and a grandfather does not prove that Waternoose has a large family (they could have all been only children) and anyway, having a large family does not prove whether you are or aren’t part of a minority group.

As to Randall’s “bad rap,” I would say that at least some of this comes from what some monsters (and audience members) might see as a grouchy attitude. I can’t recall one character in the film to whom he spoke in a “nice” or “pleasant” manner. Of course, that doesn’t make him quote-unquote “evil”.

I would say that “no firebreathers” is a parody of “no smokers allowed” or something like that, i.e., it’s not that somebody hates firebreathers for being a minority (which we don’t know if they are, although we only see one monster in the movie breathing fire) or because they think the fire-breather is a terrorist or something, but - as we see, they can sometimes breathe fire accidentally, and maybe the monster that placed that ad simply doesn’t want to risk getting burned, the way that someone who says “no smokers allowed” might be allergic to cigarette smoke.

The idea that Randall was originally going to be Top Scarer and Sulley was going to be his inept assistant actually makes me think that Sulley is supposed to actually be Top Scarer in the finished film - if the writers decided to make him (at least appear to be) Top Scarer, there must have been something that wasn’t working about the story when he was supposed to be incompetent.

Also, I don’t believe previous drafts of the script necessarily become backstory for the finished film.

Another interesting thing - Sulley’s tail always looked rather reptilian to me, kind of like a crocodile or alligator tail more than a mammal tail, especially with those spikes. Perhaps he’s got some reptilian ancestry in there as well.