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Is Waternoose the "bad guy" in Monsters Inc?

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Is Waternoose the "bad guy" in Monsters, Inc.?

Yes, he definitely knew what he was doing was wrong and continued for his own personal benefit
21
50%
Yes, but Randall is more of the antagonist than he is and should take the most blame
10
24%
No, but what he did was wrong and he deserved his punishment
11
26%
No, and he didn't deserve to be taken away like he did
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 42

Is Waternoose the "bad guy" in Monsters Inc?

Postby Pixelated » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:43 pm

Do you consider Waternoose the "bad guy" in Monsters, Inc.? Personally, I don't. I think Randall is the only true bad guy in the movie. In fact, I feel a bit sympathetic towards the guy. All he wanted to do was make the company succeed and keep it going, and failed. To be fair, his methods weren't exactly ethical, but he didn't have evil intentions. He even argued against Randall's way of carrying out the plan several times.

Anyways, just wanted to see what other people think.
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Postby A113 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:50 pm

I voted 2.
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Postby Fett101 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:42 am

*awaits the coming wrath of lizard girl.*

I haven't not seen it recently enough to actually say really. I wonder what the general monster consensus of humans were though. Had they sent scouts through closet doors to gain some understanding of human life? What did they consider them compared to themselves among the evolutionary ladder?
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Postby Nexas » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:48 am

*massages temple* I knew something as this would come up soon enough....took awhile and at a weird time soon....ahh well...

*looks around* To avoid the changing opinion argument, the facts I state below are just things to take into consideration, as some may not have noticed or made the connections and might realize a different option from it. Their choice. But I would like them to be at least acknowledged....

First, Waternoose himself.

1. Waternoose is CEO Monsters Inc. A leading company in the scare industry. He is the THIRD in a generation of Waternooses to own a company. So, one would know that he is a rather wealthy man/crab. As such, losing the company wouldn't drastically affect him financially. This means more of pride or emotion, as the previous two Waternooses, Floyd and the yet-unnamed one kept the company up.

2. Waternoose shows no remorse for kidnapping, and even states "I'll kidnap a thousand children before I let this company die!". Meaning he IS aware of what he is doing, and what he WILL do.

3. Waternoose banished Sullivan and Wazowski. He DID, however, feel remorse later for the action. But the way he say's it though hints it was more for the company's sake. "Because of you, I to banish MY top scarer". Think on this. Didn't use Sullivan's name. Would be said he only uses Sullivan because he is Top Scarer, and not because he considers Sullivan part of his family (see "hugging the boss" bit)

4. As soon as Sullivan comes back, gets a good hit on Ran, ouch, Waternoose's "possible remorse" above is blanked out when he states "there can't be any witnesses". Anybody care to guess what this means? And when an enraged Randall adds "there won't be", Waternoose has no change in expression. (not to mention Waternoose's "finish him", anybody play Mortal Combat?, in the fight Randall and Sullivan have)
Now that one thinks of it, you'd think Waternoose could've gotten from behind the extraction through the fight. Hmm....anyway.

5. Sure, Waternoose didn't want M.I. going down. He didn't want to loose the Waternoose tradition of three generations. But he would have done ANYTHING to do it. Kidnap, kill, banish, decieve, and manipulate. Sound like a boss you would want?

*sighs*...Ok....now in defense of Ran....

1. THE PLAN WAS WATERNOOSE'S. "I" never "trusted YOU" with this". Why would Waternoose say that if it was Randall's plan? Besides, given the severity of this all, would a CEO listen to Scarer in this? Either way, Waternoose stated it himself.

2. Waternoose=CEO, Randall=Scarer. CEO? Need good experience (unless your Sullivan, and miraculously get BOTH experience AND job within a year). Scarer? Well they're working class. Sure, Randall's no slump scarer, but there are applicants that have promise, even if lower than his. Now what if Randall would have said NO to the Scream Extractor plan? Well lets see, seeing as how Waternoose would have discussed it, Randall would have that....so the result would either have Randall fired, discreeted, or killed. And seeing as how Waternoose LIKED Sullivan, who got a first class ticket to the Himilayas. one would wonder what he would do to someone he DOESN'T like....

3. Randall GAVE Sullivan and Wazowski a way out. ANYONE ELSE notice that? "I know how to make this all go away". They put her back, and they walk away. Yeah, sure, Boo would be in the Extractor's hands, but at least Ran was OFFERING a chance for them to get out of it all, unlike what he had.

4. Movie-wise, Randall had more screen time than Waternoose. Of course, it was mostly on his "moody time", aside from the bathroom scene's start where he's, he thinks, alone and calm. But people, the true bad guy doesn't always show themselves outright. They can be BEHIND THE LINES and MANIPULATING OTHERS to carry out what they want.

5. Just to add to number 3, Randall was also looking for the kid "I was up all night trying to find it". Course, doubt Waternoose was handling that, probably didn't so much care as long as it wasn't connected to the factory (hence his increase in mental steam when the M.I. bag, that Sullivan and Wazowski dropped, was recovered and shown to said CEO). Though through the panic, one would have to wonder why Randall cared to search for a kid he could've gotten a second of through many of M.I.'s doors. Maybe because if the kid had anything that could be traced to M.I., hence get Waternoose on the pull......or maybe something else that one wouldn't consider a so-called villain to have.


*blows out breath* All I can recall at this moment. As said, things to consider, ain't here to argue or discuss them, already have to my knowledge. Just CONSIDER.....
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Postby Nexas » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:00 am

Fett101 wrote:*awaits the coming wrath of lizard girl.*

I haven't not seen it recently enough to actually say really. I wonder what the general monster consensus of humans were though. Had they sent scouts through closet doors to gain some understanding of human life? What did they consider them compared to themselves among the evolutionary ladder?


Forgot to add....to Ran's number 5...just because we SEE him more as the antagonist doesn't mean he IS the main antagonist. I'm sure there are examples.
It's what I call the "Pawn Moves First".
AH! As just a SMALL example, take Sauron and Sarumon (I still have to wonder about the names) in Lord of the Rings. SAURON is the main villain, but we see Sarumon more and HIS actions more.

:shock: I thought I was wrathful one....yay ^0^ I'm not the wrathful one! ^0^.....Sorry LG ^_^:;;;;;;;;;

Interesting question. One would say Mons think of themselves as superior to humans. But it is difficult. The PUBLIC may believe that, the vast amount of monsters, but privateers may KNOW that humans are just as intelligent. Monsters, 98 or so percentage, are unaware they a decendant from similiar human origins. It's a highly kept secret. That, along with the Toxic Card, severly limits Human/Mon relationship. Mostly it is to "protect Mons from humans" as most humans WOULD kill a monster anyway.
Hard to say...but I suppose that most monsters think of humans as inferior...as Scarers and the R&D division are practically the only Mons to interact with humans/their world to some extent.
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Postby Fairly Odd New Yorker » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:53 am

I voted the first one, 'cause duh, he did know what he was doing since he was so desperate to save the company. :P Didn't seem to me like he regretted it.
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Postby lizardgirl » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:53 pm

"I'll kidnap a thousand children before I let this company die!"

Nope, nope. Not a bad guy at all. :lol:

Yes, in essence, Waternoose just wanted to keep the company going. He'd become desperate and felt that what he was doing (or, rather, what he was making Randall do) was the only way to keep the company alive.

In a way, I don't think Monsters, Inc. had any 'bad guys'. Both characters that could be accused of being 'bad guys' had reasons for their actions, although Waternoose's reasoning might be a little more clear-cut than Randall's.

Waternoose wanted to save the company (and himself), and Randall wanted to save himself. I guess he was fed up of being a nobody, of always being second best. And I'm sure that there's a part of his reasoning that actually wanted to help the company too, and to develop something pioneering.

I'm not going to say that Randall wasn't a 'bad guy'...He was. Really. But, having watched the movie so many times now, you just pick up on little things, and all of those little things add up to a bigger picture. The first time I saw MI, I loved Randall probably because he was the villain! Now, I love him not only because of his rather quirky personality, but also because I empathise with how he felt and how he was treated. It isn't glaringly obvious, but if you really pay attention to Waternoose's words, they're so full of malice and hate that one would not expect out of such an originally grandfatherly figure.

In short, both Randall and Waternoose did bad things and both had their reasons. And while we're at it, Mike and Sulley did some pretty bad things too, and they too had their reasons.
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Postby Netbug009 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:16 pm

I vote yes. Every good villain has a motive. That doesn't make them less of a villain, that makes them interesting.
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Postby pitbulllady » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:48 pm

Pixelated, you don't have a career, by any chance...one where you have to work for a supervisor, who is all about MONEY(and making more and more of it), and thinks nothing of using people for his/her own personal gain, then discards them like last week's garbage.

I have a feeling that your answer is "NO".

I HAVE worked for such a boss...more than one, actually. Lucky me. I've been in Randall's position, and I know first hand how this business works.

Let's get some things straight. Waternoose was the CEO of Monsters, Inc., the Head Honcho, the MAN. His family had owned the company for three generations, so he was what folks down here call "old money". He was used to having things go his way, from birth, simply because he was a Waternoose.

Randall was a Nobody, in terms of power. He earned minimum wage(this is according to Disney's "Essential Guide To Monsters, Inc." by the way). He was definitely an "odd man out", a square peg in a round hole, so to speak, but also very competitive and driven to succeed, to prove his worth to somebody, ANYBODY. On top of that, Randall was just 25, still very naive like most Human World counterparts at that age, still trying to hold onto the Monster World equivalent of "The American Dream", yet probably also being hit hard with the reality that the REAL reason he was working was simply to pay bills and keep a roof over his head. Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt. That would have made him a sort of injured sea lion to Waternoose's "Great White" persona-an easy mark, in other words. Now, factor in that Randall must have had or demonstrated considerable engineering talent(perhaps he had a degree in such), and there's the perfect set-up.

Here's a FACT-Big-shot bosses/CEO's, with all that power, DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM OR LISTEN TO "NOBODIES"! I have an easier time believing that there actually IS an alternate reality, in which the dominant lifeform on Earth is a bunch of monsters, than I can believe for ONE SECOND that a Nobody like Randall Boggs can just walk up to a big-shot Boss like Waternoose, and say, "I'm gonna build this machine to steal screams from human children, right here in YOUR factory, and then I'm gonna use it to become rich and famous and take over YOUR company, and there's nothing you can do about it!"

Kiddo, the universe DOES NOT work that way. Never has, never will, in ANY dimension.

The Scream Extractor was Waternoose's idea, period. HE needed someone to design it and build it for him, since he probably had no engineering skills to speak of, and he needed that someone to be EXPENDABLE-someone he could easily manipulate, and who better than a 25-year-old "kid", that had no family(so therefore no one would miss him if he "just disappeared"), someone who already had the motivation to want to prove himself, and had the skills to be able to design and build a prototype Scream Extractor, and Waternoose found that individual in the form of Randall Boggs. It wouldn't have been too hard; a simple computer check of employee profiles would quickly have matched him up with the traits Waternoose was looking for. All businesses maintain those on employees, for just that purpose-to match them up with the skills they are best suited to. Unfortunately, what Waternoose had in mind for that particular employee was illegal at the time, but hey, that's how a lot of these CEOs get to where they are, by using or taking advantage of someone else, and skirting around legal issues. Think the big oil company CEO's are making their billions upon billions 100% legally and honestly? If you do, I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona I'll sell ya, real cheap...and I'll even through in this bridge in Brooklyn for free! Waternoose is no different, other than species, from those guys, or the guys who were running ENRON(Google it if you're too young to remember what that was), and he needed someone to take the fall in case the wrong people found out about the Scream Extractor, and of course, that someone was Randall Boggs. Randall wound up being the main ANTAGONIST, because Waternoose wanted to stay out of the picture until the machine was proven a success, and the legal issues of bringing "dangerous" human children into the Monster World were worked out, but if you believe that Waternoose actually intended to reward Randall(as he'd no doubt promises, with an executive position in the company, more money, etc.)once all was said and done, I'll not only sell you that nice Arizona beach property, and the Brooklyn Bridge, but I'll even throw in my own personal snow skiing/snowboarding resort here on the Atlantic Coastal Plain of South Carolina, where you can enjoy sub-freezing temps and mountains of icy snow, all year round!

Heck, Waternoose didn't even LIKE Randall, and that tone he takes with him shows that clearly, so why would someone like Henry J. Waternoose allow someone like Randall Boggs to use HIS company and HIS company's equipment and money to build a machine that was RANDALL"S idea, especially if Waternoose knew that the main reason Randall wanted to do that was to hurt the chances of Waternoose's OWN PERSONAL FRIEND(aka James P. Sullivan) of breaking the All-time Scare Record? That scenario makes absolutely no sense at all, none, zero, zilch. If you believe that it does-that the Scream Extractor was all Randall's idea and HE manipulated poor old Mr. Waternoose into letting him build that machine so he could defeat Sulley, I'll GIVE you the White House AND the Grand Canyon, along with everything I promised, along with a lifetime set of placards emblazoned with a certain famous quote by P.T. Barnum...something about "suckers". I don't think he was referring to lollipops, either.

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Postby Nexas » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:34 am

Now lets not be overly critical....he/she is just soothing into PP (100 or so posts) ^_^;
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Postby lennonluvr9 » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Yeah I would say he was definitely a bad guy who got what he deserved. At first I thought he regretted it (when he said "Because of you I had to banish my top scarer") but really he just regretted the way he handled that part. He didnt really regret what he was doing on the whole.
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Postby ilikepinatas » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:23 am

I wasn't sure which one to vote for so I just went for number 3.. I'd agree to the first one, but I'm not sure if it was for his personal benefit, because yes, he didn't want the company to go down, but also because if the company went bust, there wouldn't be any scream around for the civilians of Monstropolis. So yes I'd say he was a bad guy knowing that his plan was immoral, but all he wanted was to keep his company from going under for his ancestors and for Monstropolis. Just my two cents(=
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Postby animagusurreal » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:35 pm

In filmmaking terms, with Sulley and Mike as the protaganists, I think that Waternoose is the main antagonist (as the one in charge of the scheme and the last to be overcome by the protaganists).

An argument could also be made for Randall being the main antagonist, since he openly opposes the protaganists from the beginning, and we don't find out about Waternoose's true agenda until later. In a sense, you could say that Randall is the Darth Maul or Darth Vader of the movie, and Waternoose is the Darth Sidious (not in terms of the "evilness level", but in terms of how the protaganists and the audience are aware of them).

I think most historical figures we view as villainous probably didn't think what they were doing was bad. I think Waternoose is a villain, but a more "realistic" Pixar villain, not a Disney moo-hoo-hoo-ha-ha-ha it's great to be bad villain. I view Randall the same way.

Waternoose is shown being nice to Boo when he thinks she's a monster child. I think he sincerely liked Sulley and regretted having to banish him. He's not "all bad." But kidnapping children to keep your company afloat isn't exactly, um..."good business." :)
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Postby princess_daisy » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:06 pm

um...Who's waternoose? :?:
Amy Depp. IT has a nice ring to it.
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Postby The Star Swordsman » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:25 pm

Mr. Waternoose is the monster who is basicly the boss of Monsters. Inc. He is the monster in the suit with the lot of legs. He says in the movie "I would kidnap a thousand children than let this company die!"
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