Evolution and Creation

[Sky]

I’ve said this before, but since I asked the question and others are answering, I’ll say it again: evolution should be taught in a scientific classroom, and Creationism/Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, (alongside other religious stories of how the world came to be) should be taught in a Religious Studies class. Simple.

Al-bob and A113 - I don’t want to make it seem as if I’m picking on you, but you seem to be purposefully ignoring my questions and posts in general, unless I point them out to you are plead with you to answer a specific question, you’ll go on ignoring it. Maybe you are not familiar with the idea of debating? (In that case, why even post in this thread?) I feel so drained and like I’m banging my head against a brick wall here, but if you two want to continue living in your little bubble without taking into consideration anyone’s point of view outside of your family, church, religious friends etc, then that’s your choice.

Do you use Conservapedia, A113? Answer me that please, for the third time. You have such a dislike of Wikipedia (even though you need sources to add information to it), but what do you think of Conservapedia? - of which you can add pretty much whatever information you like (as long as it represents a US, conservative, Christian POV, of course.) Do you use Conservapedia for your home-schooling assignments?

@A113

Give me one proof [against intelligent design.]

Hmm. You’ll ignore all of my direct questions, yet respond to one sentence. Bizarre.

As I (and others) have said many times, you are the one claiming that God created the Earth in seven days and all the animals at the same time, therefore YOU have to prove such a ridiculous claim before you can tell me to prove that it didn’t happen. And besides, we have pretty much rock-solid evidence for evolution which totally throws your (unproven) theory out the window, even if we did have proof for it beforehand.

@Al-bob

This therad seems to be haeding towards doom and lockdown…we need to clean up and start over…

I haven’t seen any warnings from any mods, yet. Have you?

@Al-bob

becaues it holds the prophecies of Jesus and possesses some other items that i can’t remember. The [old testament] law though is no longer used becuase Jesus came.

So why the oppression of gay people still? Why such strong opposition to gay marriage and adoption rights?

@WALL·E

gay people are sometimes the most caring and tolerant! They don’t brag, they don’t care about how soemone looks or what religion they are, and are very friendly.

I don’t want to generalise, but it’s because of the intolerance they get (from intolerant Christians, and just narrow-minded people in general) they know how it feels to be oppressed so try not to do it to others, and to let others be free because they know how good it feels to be true to themselves.

@WBoon

Just because the Theory of Evolution has been claimed a fact doesn’t mean Creationism is made fiction.

Actually, because of the contradictions between Creationism and evolution, and because evolution has been tested and, according to scientists, is the most likely event of how we came to be, this would pretty much discount Creationism in the process.

@The Star Swordsman

Now I know that a one-word-mistranslation can go a long way. I think the mistranslation come down to human error. Some translators might agree that one word might be “this”, while other translators might agree that one wor might be “that”

See, that still doesn’t make sense to me. I just don’t understand why people claim that the Bible is the “holy word of God” yet there are still many contradictions between translations. One Bible would have to be “truer” than others, probably the first Bible…

@bright dot-dasher

You have to look at the big picture, the background of it. Understand what they are going through at that time, how different things were, and the ‘hidden message’, or at least figure out what they meant by it.

So why even be religious at all? If the Bible is there for you to project your own morals and way of thinking on, and everyone will interpret it differently (usually to support their own view, anyway) then what’s the point? And it seems like you need to jump through hoops just to interpret the Bible and get a straight opinion on anything, or there will be contradictions which confuses people even more.

[The_Star_Swordsman]

@rachelcakes1985

I’ve said this before, but since I asked the question and others are answering, I’ll say it again: evolution should be taught in a scientific classroom, and Creationism/Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, (alongside other religious stories of how the world came to be) should be taught in a Religious Studies class. Simple.

I totally agree with you on that. The thing I notice is that most schools don’t have religious studies. I believe every school is required to learn a life science before graduating, and if you study a life science, you have to put in evolution in there some where.

See, that still doesn’t make sense to me. I just don’t understand why people claim that the Bible is the “holy word of God” yet there are still many contradictions between translations. One Bible would have to be “truer” than others, probably the first Bible…

I believe you are right on that. Probably the original bible is more true than the others. However, the original one was not english, so it had to be translated for other to read.

[bawpcwpn]

I just looked at that Conservipedia that Rachel pointed out and really felt quite sick at how biased and unfair it was and at the potential number of people who believe it all word for word because it is the “Trustworthy Encyclopaedia”.

Anyone who trusts that over Wikipedia is a fool and should be shunned from society.

[WALL_E1]

I just read it, and I assume anyone with an account can edit it, so it’s justas unreliable as wikipedia! also this is VERY biased! Wikipedia are very strict on making sure their articles are impartial and are locked if excessive tampering takes place.

[WBoon]

@rachelcakes1985

Actually, because of the contradictions between Creationism and evolution, and because evolution has been tested and, according to scientists, is the most likely event of how we came to be, this would pretty much discount Creationism in the process.

Again, you implicated that Evolution was proven by scientists to have happened; that still doesn’t prove that the events revolving round Creationism didn’t. Even if they did make attempts in proving that they didn’t, read, my, sig. So what?

Scientists are not psychics, gods nor oracles. They are human, and up till today, many have made great mistakes throughout history. HOWEVER, don’t mistake my point in this. I’m not implicating that they are so unreliable that we can not even trust some parts of the Theory of Evolution; I’m saying that there’s a chance, just a little chance that we nor anyone should ignore that Creationism might be just closer to the truth than we think.

Like, aliens, for example. No one can prove that, yet, but that doesn’t stop some of us from believing the possibility that they exist.

[lizardgirl]

Wow. Conservapedia is slightly scary.

TSS- So at High School, you don’t have to do RS lessons? That’s a shame. Over here, I think it’s pretty much obligitary to learn about other religions at school. I myself have studied Christianity and Judaism, and I’m pleased that we had to learn about it because it does make the students more open-minded.

WBoon- Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Bible basically say that humans are the special ones? What does the Bible say about aliens, if anything? I only ask because I’m curious- I hadn’t thought about that side of things before. Because, of course, if there are aliens, then God must’ve made them. Does Creationism allow for the existence of aliens?

I know you only used it as a random example, but I really hadn’t thought about the existence of aliens in terms of religion before.

Personally, I think it’s quite likely that aliens exist, simply due to the large numbers and probabilities involved. But now I’m going off topic again.

I think bawpcwpn has brought up an interesting point- how does one know which parts of the Bible to believe, and which parts of the Bible to disregard? As has been mentioned before, the Bible was written at a time when society is very different to how it is nowadays. Therefore, some of the teachings of the Bible are out of date. But if it’s God’s Word, surely it can’t really ever go out of date? How does a Christian know which parts they have to abide by in order to not go to Hell? How do you know if you’ve misenterpreted a section, and you’re actually doing the wrong thing? Or does it only really apply to very general life things, such as being nice to your neighbour and not going out and killing everyone in sight? That would make the Bible a sort of human conscience written on paper, a set of morals, some of which can be disregarded because they do not apply anymore, and others which always have applied, and always will.

[lennonluvr9]

If you dont mind, Lizardgirl, I’d like to answer a few of those questions. At least from my point of view, because i’m sure everyone’s is different.

So at High School, you don’t have to do RS lessons?

As far as I know it’s not a requirement. I went to Catholic high school and yeah world religions took up just a week in my senior year of religion class (lemme just say that religion class at the high school level is kind of a moot point). So we spent about one day (!) on each of the major religions. I got a bit more out of my Comparative Religions class I took in college. I’m fascinated by other religions, so I wanted to learn more. And in that class (which made a point to be neutral, although we took a poll in the class and everyone in it was a Christian ) we even got to the smaller ones, like Wicca, Daoism (which is more of a philosophy than a religion), etc.

What does the Bible say about aliens, if anything

I’m honestly not aware of the Bible mentioning aliens. Probably because at the time it was written, no one knew about the possibility of aliens. Or if they did, perhaps they didnt think it was important. I’ve wondered too, if there are aliens, would they believe in the same kind of god? Would they even have a god?

how does one know which parts of the Bible to believe, and which parts of the Bible to disregard

That’s probably where religion starts to come in. It seems different religions focus on different things. I mean there’s the obvious stuff like the 10 commandments and love thy neighbor that everyone follows, but there are other things. But I guess it’s ultimately your own choice what you choose to follow. I read this really interesting book over summer called The Year Of Living Biblically. The guy who wrote it is technically Jewish, although he didnt really practice it, as he was more of an agnostic. But he spends a year of following the Bible as best he can to the letter. Mindless, forgotten, obscure rules as well as the more common ones. It’s really interesting and it’s kinda funny as well (which is where I found it, in the humor section). here’s a link to it if anyone’s interested:

[url]http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp[/url]

[WALL_E1]

so why include things that you should disregard?

[The_Star_Swordsman]

TSS- So at High School, you don’t have to do RS lessons? That’s a shame. Over here, I think it’s pretty much obligitary to learn about other religions at school. I myself have studied Christianity and Judaism, and I’m pleased that we had to learn about it because it does make the students more open-minded.

lizardgirl: Sadly, we don’t have a RS in my high school. I believe that the board of education believes that one doesn’t need RS to graduate. That is why it isn’t included in our cirriculum.

[lennonluvr9]

WALL-E- Um. I dont have an answer for that aside from completeness? I assume the translators want as complete a version as they can make. I’m not what you’d call a religious/historical scholar, so that’s as much as I know.

Although not all verses are in all versions. Some Greek versions have different verses than others. There’s also the more well known King James Bible, and I think there are Catholic versions, which have whole books that arent in other versions.

In The Year of Living Biblically the author mentioned finding hundreds of different formats for the Bible, with you know, more contemporary language, or study questions, one kind that was even in the format of a teen magazine. So not all bibles are the same.

[Al-Bob]

@rachelcakes1985

I’ll say it again: evolution should be taught in a scientific classroom, and Creationism/Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, (alongside other religious stories of how the world came to be) should be taught in a Religious Studies class. Simple.

@Al-bob

becaues it holds the prophecies of Jesus and possesses some other items that i can’t remember. The [old testament] law though is no longer used becuase Jesus came.

So why the oppression of gay people still? Why such strong opposition to gay marriage and adoption rights?

1-How is Evolution considered science if we can’t see it happening?

2-Gay people should not be oppressed just as much as African American’s shouldn’t be oppressed. I don’ t think they are different becuase of who they marry…just weird in what they (have problems with)…how can they say that it is a dna problem?? did their great grandfather have that problem? How can it just suddenly appear in the dna?

Here are some examples for creationist beginning…

For example, the Hudson River Canyon is a vast cut into the earth that goes down 15,000 feet! That’s over 3 miles deep. And the weird part is that it is entirely below the ocean. Scietists and evolutionists have never been able to explain this formation.

Another example, a flat plain of rocks called the Tiberian Plateau has fossil sea shells in it. This might not seem so peculiar except that ist several miles above sea level. There is also the Columbia-Plateau lava flow that is so huge it covers 20,000 miles! Evolutionists today cannot explani how a slow process could create such designs.

That’s only the beginning! There are fossil beds where million upon million of fish were bureid so fast they didn’t have time to decay. There are places in Siberia and Alaska where over 100,000 mammoths were frozen so fast the flowers are still in their mouths! There is no way a slow process could result in this.

[lizardgirl]

Al-Bob- There a lot of things that are considered scientific fact without you ever being able to see them. A lot of the stuff I studied in Physics last year was theoretical- inertia, friction, components of the atom, that sort of stuff. It doesn’t mean it’s any less believable.

Gay people may not be the majority, but I don’t think they’re ‘weird’ because of it. A person’s sexual orientation can depend on many different factors. As the human being has developed- or evolved, as one could say- instinct has become less influential, and factors such as nurture and upbringing are now more influential.

And there’s still the chance of people being ‘born gay’. I don’t know the details of genetics, but for example, there are some illnesses (and I am not calling homosexuality an illness, I’m just using an example of genetic defect) where both parents can be carriers of a gene, but not display any of its negative side-effect. But when they have a child, the child suffers with the illness.

[bawpcwpn]

lizardgirl hit the nail on the head. It’s how people with down syndrome are born. A normal person has an X and a Y chromosome for a Male or and X and an X for a female. Something with down syndrome is born with (for a female) 3 X chromosomes causing the deficiencies they have.

As for the Hudson Canyon Al-Bob.

The canyon was formed during the last Ice Age, over 10,000 years ago, when the sea level was about 400 feet (120 m) lower and the mouth of the Hudson River was near the edge of the continental shelf, about 100 miles (160 km) east of its present site. The river discharged sediment that helped carve the canyon aided by underwater avalanches of mud and sand. Recent maps of the canyon reveal tributaries of an extraordinary underwater drainage network that is strikingly similar to terrestrial rivers. Tidal currents sweep up and down the channel; and on occasion, during big storms, cold ocean water is pushed up the Hudson Canyon to spread out on the shelf. Thus the Hudson Canyon continues to be cut by traveling sediments (Butman, et al., 2006).

The are many ways for the mammoths to have died. Just because we don’t know for sure now, doesn’t mean its cut and dry God’s Flood work. The mammoths could have fallen into icy traps and frozen, or drowned in a river that has flooded. When reading up about the mammoths I found this very interesting:

A small population of woolly mammoths survived on St. Paul Island, Alaska, up until 6000 BC,[5] while another remained on Wrangel Island, located in the Arctic Ocean, up until 1700 BC.

Some also believe Mammoths to still exist and be in hiding around Siberia and Alaska.

I can’t find a single mention of the Tiberian Plateau. Nowhere. With the Columbia River Basalt Group, I found this on its creation. You must remember that sea levels weren’t what they are today.

What you must understand is that Scientists do not have a book of answers and try to mold the questions to fit the answers. No they research and come up with their own answers. Just because a Scientists can’t tell you now, doesn’t mean they can’t in 20 years. There is so much we know now that we didn’t know 20 years ago. Just look at computers!

[WBoon]

@bawpcwpn

What you must understand is that Scientists do not have a book of answers and try to mold the questions to fit the answers. No they research and come up with their own answers. Just because a Scientists can’t tell you now, doesn’t mean they can’t in 20 years. There is so much we know now that we didn’t know 20 years ago. Just look at computers!

And you can’t say the same for Creationism? Taku…

Just because Creationism highly deters away from logic and science doesn’t mean it has nothing to do with them. Everything has a truth to it and Creationism is no exception. Someday, someone will find out the truth behind it - be it a scientist or not.

A little girl first discovered the hint which clued scientists into discovering the existence of Pleseosaurus - not the scientists themselves. So, you never know who might discover the shocking truth - it might even be the poor soul of a Christian himself.

[bawpcwpn]

Oh I’m not saying Christianity has no truth to it. Like an fictitious book and you will find elements in it that have been found in the author’s life, so I am sure there are some truths to it, just not the truths to the big questions that the religions claim to offer.

[A113]

Okay, everyone. Time-out. B-on-T, all of us!

You can have your opinions about some website, but this is not the place to share them.
This is not a thread about the Old Testament.
Do not start any arguments, creationists, about the evolutionists being blind. And evolutionists, do not start any arguments about the creationists being ignorant.

---

Now, back to the Grand Canyon. I looked at that first website and read through it.

How could the river reverse direction? A plateau rising into the river would result in:

The river stopping there.
The river forming a canyon through the plateau.
The river making its way around the plateau.

The river didn’t stop, and the river didn’t go around it, and the river didn’t form a canyon trhough it, becuase it’s flowing in the opposite direction.

[Al-Bob]

@bawpcwpn

As for the Hudson Canyon Al-Bob.

The canyon was formed during the last Ice Age, over 10,000 years ago, when the sea level was about 400 feet (120 m) lower and the mouth of the Hudson River was near the edge of the continental shelf, about 100 miles (160 km) east of its present site. The river discharged sediment that helped carve the canyon aided by underwater avalanches of mud and sand. Recent maps of the canyon reveal tributaries of an extraordinary underwater drainage network that is strikingly similar to terrestrial rivers. Tidal currents sweep up and down the channel; and on occasion, during big storms, cold ocean water is pushed up the Hudson Canyon to spread out on the shelf. Thus the Hudson Canyon continues to be cut by traveling sediments (Butman, et al., 2006).

The are many ways for the mammoths to have died. Just because we don’t know for sure now, doesn’t mean its cut and dry God’s Flood work. The mammoths could have fallen into icy traps and frozen, or drowned in a river that has flooded. When reading up about the mammoths I found this very interesting:

A small population of woolly mammoths survived on St. Paul Island, Alaska, up until 6000 BC,[5] while another remained on Wrangel Island, located in the Arctic Ocean, up until 1700 BC.

Some also believe Mammoths to still exist and be in hiding around Siberia and Alaska.

I can’t find a single mention of the Tiberian Plateau. Nowhere. With the Columbia River Basalt Group, I found this on its creation. You must remember that sea levels weren’t what they are today.

Maybe you should try something other then wiki?? I use that all the time but i have found some contradictory items…

100,000 mammoths its like a hole clan…only bigger! I can’t bring myself to believe your explanation to that one…

If ocean currents are still eroding the Hudson Canal how come it hasn’t dissapeared or eroded a lot away? How could it go slow but over million of years not erod it away?

[Sky]

@Al-bob

How is Evolution considered science if we can’t see it happening?

There’s no requirement in science that scientists have to able to see changes right now, or even within our lifetime (of which, in the grand scheme of things is a very, very, very short amount of time.) We have been able to see recent changes, though, such as (as previously said) children being born with less and less wisdom teeth due to the soft diet we have been eating.

Al-bob - Careful with the quoting, be very specific about what you are replying to and quoting so it doesn’t get hard to read.

@Al-bob

I don’ t think [gay people] are different becuase of who they marry…just weird in what they (have problems with)…

Well, they are different than the norm (straight people) but that doesn’t mean they are “abnormal” in a weird sort of way. And for homosexuality to have been around even to this present day it must have had some sort of benefit for the human race, such as when male tribes were out hunting for weeks at a time, it would be beneficial to have gay members to keep their interest in sexual relationships.

What exactly do they have problems with? Sexual attraction to the same gender (consenting adult) is not classed as a mental illness and has not been since 1975. The only “problem” is people like you who have a problem with it, and, in cases of some Christians (and other narrow-minded folk) an unhealthy fixation (Fred Phelps) with something that really is none of their business and which doesn’t affect them in the slightest.

But anyway, if you say that the OT isn’t followed anymore, yet you still choose to deny homosexuals marriage and adoption rights simply because, according to the OT it’s an ‘abomination,’ then you are picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to follow. Is there any references to gay people in the NT? Did Jesus think it was worth advising about? If not, why is it such a big freakin’ deal within the Christian church today, then? Couldn’t have been that big of a deal for Jesus if he didn’t mention it in his lifetime, so why make a big deal opposing gay marriage rights?

@Al-bob

how can they say that it is a dna problem?? did their great grandfather have that problem? How can it just suddenly appear in the dna?

Why are some people born left-handed, with most other people being born right-handed? It’s just one of life’s mysteries. The more older brothers a male child has, there is an increased chance of them turning out to be gay, which suggests that the mother’s testosterone was “used up” on the brothers when determining their sexual orientation, so oestrogen is used on the male baby instead. Whatever the 'cause, which seems to have something to do with genetics, homosexuality is not a choice. You can also feel free to read other facts on that page, maybe you’ll learn something.

A113 - Even though it may not seem like debating the clearness of certain passages in the Bible has any relevance to Creationism, I think it does because the whole theory (and I mean that in the most non-scientific way possible) of Creationism hinges on the Bible in the first place, and whether you take it literally or not (1 day can equal 1 day, or to some Christians that I know, 1 day equals 1 million years, for example) or even a slight translation error can mean a lot. I don’t think this is off-topic at all, and even if it is, it’s hard to keep a broad topic such as religion confined to solely just Creationism and Evolution.

---

I’m quite surprised this video hasn’t been brought up here to prove Intelligent Design. It’s unintentionally funny, and I’m almost tempted to put a “Not Safe For Work” warning in front of it (heh), but don’t worry, it’s rated G.

Banana: The Athiest’s Nightmare

I’m not putting this here to make fun of Christians, but this is a very basic example of the “go outside and take a look around - this must have been made by God” argument. I’m quite ashamed to be from the same country as Ray Comfort - not because of his religion, but his flat out ignorance in not willing to correct his factual errors on his website that he posts every day, even when proven wrong.

[bawpcwpn]

A113: For the umpteenth time, stop picking and choosing questions to answer! What is the name of your local library?

Please show me a piece of evidence from a scientific website that is verified in at least two places showing that the river flowed in the way you describe please.

[A113]

Rachel: This thread is about debating science, not religion. I’m not going there. I’ll respond to those questions via PM.
bawpcwpn: That’s too personal of a question, and irrelevant. Sorry.

---

Back to the Grand Canyon.

The Colorado River flows southwest. In order for it to carve the Grand Canyon, it would have to either flow northeast downhill, or flow southwest uphill.

Neither makes sense.