Evolution and Creation

A113, it’s not personal at all. What a load of popcorn. The only way is it personal is that you visit it, and so do many others hopefully. It’s not irrelevant because I want to see if they can get in a copy of The God Delusion which you can then read. If you don’t want to read it, or they actually have it and you are just lying, just say so.

A113: I want two websites, that are scientifically factual to support your claims.

Al-Bob: Do you want to give reading The God Delusion a shot and I’ll read a text of your choosing in return for your good will?

bawpcwpn-i’m afraid i can’t reach the neccesary sites to get that book (im not going to the library anytime soon…) So i’m afraid i don’t have a choice in that question…i just don’t have the money and transportation to get it.

Thanks for being honest with your answer Al-Bob. It’s much appreciated in this thread. :slight_smile:

hey no problem…i just wish i could get to the library more often…

A113 - You are more than capable of looking back through the thread a couple of pages to see which questions you haven’t answered yet. You can also feel free to address any statements I have made in response to your questions and statements, I’d love to hear them. Because it seems as if you are using the “off-topic” argument to avoid answering. If the mods think the questions I’m asking are too off-topic, then they will tell me so (and I invite them to do so.) I’m not going to have a PM discussion with you about religion.

Also, perhaps you could email/phone the library yourself and request that they get a copy of The God Delusion plus any books on evolution. At least then you’d know what you are debating against. Does your library have any books about evolution?

The whole idea of Creationism is religious, yes? Because it sure doesn’t have any scientific basis… And once again, it’s hard to keep religion confined to the topic of evolution/Creationism so instead of being the off-topic police please just address the issue. It’s the mods’ job to let us know if we are being too off-topic, not yours to deem what is off-topic and what isn’t. If it would satisfy you, maybe we could request that this thread be re-named “Religion” or “Christiantity.”

i still can’t see how you can consider evolution science…just becuase you can’t see certain changes doesn’t mean that everything we can’t see but “know” is changing is science.

Doesn’t the law of theories state that you have to have generations of research taht show evidence of the theory you want to prove?

Well the Theory of Evolution has been around for almost 150 years now, and it’s been tested, and is continuing to be tested and refined for that whole time. It is science. The General Theory of Relativity hasn’t been around as long and I am sure you consider that science.

Scientists are able to look at fossils and samples of flora and fauna from what they have collected and are piecing the puzzle together, and thus far the puzzle suggests Evolution. The day they don’t consider Evolution to be science (and that may not ever happen), i’m sure it will not be taught and will be discarded along with other discarded scientific theories.

A113: Here is an online book (through Google) that you can read about Evolution. I don’t expect you to read the whole thing, but just probably, Part 1.

What is the theory of relativity…(that’s science right?)

You didn’t really give me any proof for Evolution being a science. I’m getting lost…

bawpcwpn: Why would you insist i read that book when clearly you have, and you could clearly explain its teachings better than i could, since you’re an atheist. No?
And the two websites? Why? I thought it as common knowledge that rivers flow downhill. The elevation of northern Arizona inclines as it goes southwest. (check out Google Maps terrain mode)
Rachel: I’m not avoiding these questions in any way. I already offered a PM discussion. As for the off-topicicity, creationism is different than Christianity. Creationism deals with science, Christianity deals with God.
And i will not debate religion; only science here. :wink:


B-on-T: Grand Canyon.

The elevation gets higher along the rim of the canyon as it goes further west. The Colorado River gets lower as it goes west through the canyon. The only way the river could have carved the canyon (if it did) would be if it flowed uphill with tremendous pressure.
Common knowledge.

A113: Are you kidding me? Creationism I believe has nothing to do with science. The fact that we include the evolution theory in there brings in the science. The creation has no scientific reason what so ever. God used his divine powers to create the world. You tell me what is so scientific about that. :confused:

Christianity deals with faith and the belief that God created everything in 6 days. Creationism researches the science behind it, such as geology, biology, etc., and how it ties in with Christianity.

Christianity is the faith, creationism supports it.

TSS is right. Creationism is not a science by any means. One definition of science is that is “the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical world, especially by observing, measuring and experimenting.” You can’t really experiment on Creationism, nor can we observe it.

Of course, in a way, the same could be argued for evolution, but as it is ongoing, it is being observed and measured. Evolution is a conclusion that has been drawn from scientific observations and logical deductions, and therefore is a science in itself.

Just because Creationism isn’t a scientific theory doesn’t mean it’s automatically wrong. It just means that it’s more difficult to test it as a theory, and it is therefore both more difficult to either prove it or disprove it. With scientific theories, if you can find contradicting evidence that goes against what the theory states, (and it isn’t anomalous), then therefore the theory is disproved. You can’t do that with Creationism.

It’s probably why Evolutionists tend to try and prove the theory of Evolution in debates such as this, and Creationists tend to try and disprove the other theories- because it’s pretty impossible to prove the theory of Creationism itself. Things such as the Grand Canyon slope problem that A113 has pointed out, for example, may, in a sense, prove that certain parts of the Bible, but still fails to prove that Creationism is true.

Oh, and concerning the Colorado river thing, A113, I managed to find a page that produces some very convincing evidence as to why it is the way it is today, without the need of rivers that flow uphill. Here is an extract that demonstrates pretty well what the whole thing is trying to say-

“The river rapidly excavated not only the Grand Canyon, but as canyon cutting worked back upstream, all the rivers back to the Yampa/Green became entrenched where they happened to be at the time. In many cases this would be superimposed above improbable terrain. In the Grand Canyon itself, the last few million years have witnessed local uplifts of the Kaibab Plateau and areas to the east of the Hurricane and Toroweap Faults. This has forced the river to cut down even more rapidly in these areas resulting in very steep sided inner gorges. The rest of the last 5.4 million years would generate today’s western scenery.”

And here’s the link- durangobill.com/PaleoriversPart5.html

So, basically, other geographical factors need to be taken into consideration, with things like tectonic plates causing land to rise upwards as well as sink. It’s a pretty interesting read.

A113: You are positively infuriating! There is no way I could explain everything in that book in this thread. I would probably have to copy it out word for word and that is plagiarism. You clearly do not understand evolution so stop pussy-footing around these requests and just read one of the texts we have suggested so you can, because at the moment it looks as if books are evil to you and you are coming up with any excuse not to read them. That one on evolution from Google Books is sufficient for you to understand evolution and would explain it better than The God Delusion. You only have to read the introduction.

Well I don’t live in Arizona so it most certainly isn’t common knowledge here. Stop citing common knowledge as sources and give me two verifiable websites already, or is it that you can’t find them because it is scientifically agreed upon (not on Christian creationist funded websites) that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the creation of the Grand Canyon as I have given links to such, and lizargirl has explained.

Christianity has everything to do with creationism. Creationism is central to the beliefs of a good portion of Christians. It is part of their beliefs and disproving some of the Christian beliefs such as the existence of God (or the existence of Allah or Vishnu etc.) would help bring down the validity of the argument for creationism (which is a poor one at that IMHO).

So, stop steering us Off Topic A113, and leave it to us Mods to decide what is Off Topic and what isn’t.

B-on-T, A113.

Al-Bob: The General Theory of Relativity, well It’s tricky for me to explain since I don’t fully understand it. But here is a good PBS record and introduction to it.

See here for why it is considered science.

I have noticed that. I’m sure you could rent an e-book of it from an online library or read that google texts page. You clearly have internet access so a few pages’ reading FOR FREE won’t take up much of your time!

In all you christians’ view which is the best encyclopia out there?

LG: If creationism isn’t a science by your definiton, then evolutionism isn’t, either. It all comes down to faith. Neither work with the scientific method, so you’re right, i was wrong, creationism is not a science. But neither is evolutionism. :sunglasses: Creationism and evolutionism are ideas, not religions. But the both involve religions; creationism:Christianity::evolution:atheism.
bawpcwpn: When did i go off-topic? (and that book, page 2 is missing lol)
WALL·E: See Psalm 118:8. Is it better to trust the Word of God than to trust encyclopedias. Also, it’d be crazy to trust everything a man says, and crazier to trust everything a whole bunch of people wrote.

And Wikipedia is not scientific. :stuck_out_tongue:


(don’t explode, bawpcwpn :laughing: ) B-on-T: Sorry about that map. Here’s where the river enters the canyon (Link) at 6000 feet on the rim. And here’s where the river exits the canyon (Link) at 6800 feet.

Notice also in those maps that the river enters the canyon at 2800 feet and exits at 2000 feet.

So if the river goes down, and the rim goes up, then how in the world could it carev the canyon? It couldn’t, unless there was tremendous force. Right?

“It is better to take refuge in the lord than to trust in man.”
You must have some new bible translation. It is crazy to trust in everything a person says. Too bad it’s not a single person saying it.

Meh. People were insanely resistant to the fact that the Earth was round.

A113, instead of asking us questions about the Grand Canyon, how about you come right out with your “evidence” about the Grand Canyon that supports Creationism. I’m eager to know exactly what you are getting at with those GC questions.

And even if we (or scientists) couldn’t come up with an answer to why things are so, you can’t automatically fill the gaps with “God did it.” If you are going to do that, then I could attribute certain things to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and my opinion would have just as much credibility as yours. See how ridiculous that seems?

face palm

A113, when it comes to this topic, you are beyond help. You obviously haven’t been reading what we have repeatedly told you about evolution being a strongly supported scientific theory, and atheism NOT being a religion (rather an absence of religion) so I don’t know… You obviously aren’t here to learn.

You seem to have contradicted yourself with the first two statements, but HOW is creationism a science? What scientific proof does creationism have? Please give me some scientific websites with examples.

You’re right. It isn’t. But if you look down the bottom of every page, they have these things called “sources” of which if you dispute something on the page you can go to the source yourself to read how credible the information is. And I’m not saying your distrust of Wikipedia is totally unfounded, but when it comes to popular and important articles such as evolution, you have to have a very good, true, scientific source to change anything on that page, less it be reverted very quickly by the admins.

EDIT:

rofl Yeah, Creationism is a science that “just happens” to tie in with Christianity. Also, please provide us with some of this geological and biological research, I’d love to read it.

You can mock me all you want, but i’ve got a purpose for life. :sunglasses: Yes, i know evolution is supported so much, but that’s because of atheism. And i corrected myself with that religion/science thing: Creationism is an idea that is based on Christianity.

Do you even know what scientific means? Have you heard of the scientific method?


Anyway, about th geologic research…
i’ve got evidence in the Grand Canyon that supports creationism, but i’d like to hear your answers to my question first. If you don’t have any answers, then i’ll explain my answers. :wink:

You need to answer all that, so i’ll just give you one question to answer, and i’ll go through the thread looking for those questions i missed (that are o-T):

So,
Did the Colorado River carve the canyon?

Yes or No?

A113, please read my previous post. I gave you a link, as well as basically explaining what the link says. But if you want me to copy and paste, then I’ll do just that-

“The river rapidly excavated not only the Grand Canyon, but as canyon cutting worked back upstream, all the rivers back to the Yampa/Green became entrenched where they happened to be at the time. In many cases this would be superimposed above improbable terrain. In the Grand Canyon itself, the last few million years have witnessed local uplifts of the Kaibab Plateau and areas to the east of the Hurricane and Toroweap Faults. This has forced the river to cut down even more rapidly in these areas resulting in very steep sided inner gorges. The rest of the last 5.4 million years would generate today’s western scenery.”

I posted the link in my previous post, if you want to read more. And I’ll keep posting this until you acknowledge it.

I know sometimes my posts are long, but I thought that the big bold bit where I wrote your username several times might have made that paragraph stand out a little. :laughing:

So, there’s your answer. :smiley:

sorry about this guys, but it is needed

but srsly.