Exactly. The environment and events that take place within it have a profound affect on an individual who resides in those surroundings. Independence is not completely ruled out, but neither is the principle of influence.
It’s just that I find the very prospect of that to be so ridiculous it’s hilarious. Just think about it. We developed from microbes? Then again, God made man from the “dust of the earth”, as it were, which is just as hard to believe. I’d rather rest in the comfort of knowing that I was created from a being of higher intelligence than some… microscopic particles.
Of course! It’s entirely nonsensical! I’ve wondered the same thing, even asked my mom how it works. “Where’d He come from? If He hadn’t created us we’d be nothing. What was before the universe? Nothing…?” I always thought it was rather unnerving, but fascinating nonetheless.
As you previously stated, the lifestyle of a child’s parents will undoubtedly affect that child… if all goes “well”. I was raised in a Christian family, and so I’ve come to both accept and love the beliefs that we share. When I first heard the theory of evolution I thought it to be completely ludicrous, but that was because I had been taught Creationism since… the beginning. One of the main reasons why I find it to be so plausible is because I’ve seen the results of faith applied to everyday circumstances… and it works! Not to get too off-topic, but I remember the first time I ever prayed about something and… it worked! I remember, I had lost an art kit of mine and couldn’t find it for the life of me. So, exhausted, I prayed and asked God to help me find the thing and, low and behold, a minute or two later, I found it (and in a place that I swear that I had looked in beforehand). I mean, that was cool, man! I was all, “Wow! Neat! It works!” And ever since then I’ve been applying that principle to my life and, heck it all, it’s amazing. It works…
So, yeah, that’s my two cent’s worth.
Heck, yeah! And you have just as much right to believe what you wish to believe in, as well, and I whole-heartedly respect that. You’re probably one of the first people I’ve met who’s willingly accepted someone else’s beliefs, yet been open to them at the same time.
I swear, you have such an interesting way of looking at things. I love the way you view things! You have and use information to back you up, yet will research other aspects of peoples’ religion(s) and ways of life in the process. I’m with Al-Bob and A113 on this: You deserve some respect.
Yeah, see, that deters me right there. If one’s for the latter option (the evolutionary theory) then he’s led to believe that he’ll just die anyway, so, for him, it doesn’t matter what the truth is in the long run. Plus, he doesn’t know where he’s headed after he departs from this Earth.
No, you’re right! That makes perfect sense! The human population has, in a way, created every form of religion that is known to this day – religion itself has evolved and expanded over the centuries. It’s all a conspiracy, if you ask me. People have created so many different forms of religion that no one knows which one to turn to exactly, or which one is “correct”. Naturally, I’m going to say that Christianity (though not a religion) is the road to travel by, but not everyone is going to choose that path. That aside, I find it interesting that a good majority of the world’s population, be they in a tribe, religious class, or other group, prefer to choose a “god” to govern over them. They have that underlying need – a desire to worship a higher authority. They just don’t know who…
I know that you were replying to Al-Bob here, but…
This is why I normally make a wide berth when it comes to politics and religion, because conflicts usually arise, and often-times for the worse. Not this time, though. Not this time. And certainly never with me. Regardless of one’s religious and/or political viewpoints, I’ll always respect that individual for who he/she is and for his/her beliefs. I’ll love anyone, even if that person is my enemy. And if a friend of mine turns out to be completely against my views and opinions, I truly don’t care. I’m not going to loose any sleep over it, because that person is my friend, and I will always treat them as a friend.
In my eyes, I’ll always consider you a friend, lizardgirl, as well as everyone else I’ve made friends of on here. Discussions like these aren’t gonna change my view of you guys.
In a nutshell, I like to resort to this notation of mine: Look at your hands. Just look at them. Have you ever seen anything so ingenious? Somebody tell me those came from microbes. Maybe it’s just me, but it’s the seemingly simple things in life that I find to be so… miraculous…
Wow. I remember that story, too! Incredible…
One of my favorites is a fact-based story that was told on a television show called Beyond Belief. I don’t remember the location of the incident, but it so happened that every member of this one church were late for the sermon. Once they arrived there, however, they discovered that the church had caught on fire. The one day that everyone was late was the one day the church went up in flames. That’s no coincidence, if you ask me.
By the way, you made some great points in your first post in this thread, A113.
Oh boy, I’m going to have a field day here. I was just having this exact discussion with Dash a few days ago.
lizargirl hit the nail on the head. Things die, things have cycles. It could have bene that 4 1/2 thousand years ago there was some kind of ice age or something that didn’t allow for those living things. Other things like fossils have been dated back millions of years, now why would an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Benevolent God trick is us with such things? Well first, being Omnipotent and Omniscient is incompatible. As Richard Dawkins put it in The God Delusion (A must read for any religious or non-religious person).
And then with God’s Benevolence, we have the Problems of Evil. The Problems of Evil state this:
There is evil the world
If God is willing to prevent evil but cannpt then he is not all powerful. (Omnipotent)
If God is able to prevent evil but is not willing to, then he is not kind. (Benevolent)
[If there is evil in the world but God doesn’t know it, then he is not all knowing. (Omniscient)]
You might say these things:
There is no evil in the world
A response to this is: okay, let’s not use the loaded and possibly ambiguous word, ‘evil.’ Let’s just say we are referring to factual knowledge e.g. pain, suffering, starvation, deformity, malice, depression, drought, flood etc.
Without evil there would be no good.
A response to this is: if God is all powerful he does not need suffering in order to cause good. Anyway, there is often disproportionate evil for a small amount of good (e.g. thousands dying hideously to awaken compassion in a few.)
God doesn’t cause evil, humans do.
A Respone to this is: but evil is not confined to ‘manmade’ situations e.g. drought, cancer. (You might say humans cause these things, but humans don’t cause all of them all of the time.)
If we agree to confine the problem to just ‘manmade’ evil we still have the problem of why God has not limited this. There would be not much limitation of freedom in making murder psychologically impossible, for instance. (After all, God didn’t make us telepathic either and we still seem to have free will.)
Evil is not really evil but humans think so because they do not understand God’s plan.
A response to this is: but if what we think is evil is really not evil, then we cannot apply human ideas of evil or good to God at all. This stops the problem of evil from being a problem, but it also prevents God from being defined in a comprehensible way. Often the idea of an afterlife is introduced as part of God’s plan as a means of achievieving justice. The previous point that an Omnipotent God should not need evil to achieve justice surfaces here too. (Besides raising another problem / debate concerning the existence / nature of an afterlife.)
[Thanks to C. Poulsen for this Greatest teacher, ever!]
Mitch, I blush for the both of us. There is no reason whatsoever in your arguments and they are so common and easily fallible, I expected a little more from someone of your stature.
I was positively dumbfounded when I read these words as they came from your mouth. Richard H. Popkin PhD and Avrum Stroll PhD in the second edition of Philosophy Made Simple (ISBN: 0 434 986 08 9) have these things to say to your “Intelligent Design” argument or Argument from Design. David Hume actually had a lot to say on this argument.
What you seem to be doing Mitch is using analogy. You are saying that because we have seen things like ships or watches (this argument is also known as the Watchmaker argument) and how they complex they are, then if you look at the world and see how complex it is, well then the world must have some sort of designer too.
Human is basically saying here that if we can conceive of a designer with no difficulty, why could it not be that the world has come from some internal working order that has guided its design. Think of it like a seed for a carrot. The carrot has everything it needs to grow and die from that tiny seed. Carrots don’t just appear into existence. The argument from analogy seems to fall apart here. From everything I see in the world, the world seems more like it was formed from some internal working order than a designer. Hume goes on to say,
The argument from design is really based on an unsound analogy. I have a lot more where that came from, but this post is going to be long enough I’ll leave it until you bring it up, if you bring it up at all.
Again, faulty analogy. If you are saying that something had to cause the big bang, then it is of equal merit to me to ask where God came from. If the universe had a beginning, then it’s just as likely God had a beginning. If not, both God and the universe could just have “happened”.
I cannot believe that you made such a low attack that is baseless. I am utterly shocked. Where did anyone say that evolution has stopped? We are constantly evolving. Evolution doesn’t happen in any one person’s lifetime, it happens over hundreds or thousands or millions of years. Gradual changes. I am beginning to wonder if you know how evolution actually works. I shall refresh your memory if you have forgotten.
Evolution makes the claim that nothing happened instantly, a la God. Rather changes happened over thousands and millions and billions of years. An integral part of Evolution is Natural Selection. Natural Selection is the process where nature chooses the elements or features to best survive. So with the eye, it didn’t just happen, it evolved. Take a giraffe for example. They didn’t just get long necks. No one time, a giraffe was born with a slightly longer neck than the rest, and it was able to survive better than the rest as it could get to a few higher branches. Natural selection noticed this and that Longer neck gene was passed on. Over hundreds and thousands of years, longer necks became an integral part for a giraffes survival and natural selection noticed this and that is why giraffes have longer necks today. I’m glad you didn’t take the whole, “We are descendants of monkey’s, then why aren’t monkeys evolving today?” Well this is a common misconception. Humans evolved from the same primal ancestor as monkey’s. Scientists are still finding links to this day between humans and this primal ancestor, and our neanderthal ancestors.
Al-Bob: your main critique seems to be of evolution and how it increasingly, appears not be as sound. That’s the thing with science, if we don’t know the answer, we strive to find the answer and correct our hypothesis and theories. Religion, I would like to point out, tells us the correct answer and it seems doesn’t encourage us to look for answers as they have the answers. Religious people seem to fill gaps in their knowledge with God. If you don’t know the answer, then God must be the answer. However, just because we don’t know now, doesn’t mean me won’t now.
Back to Mitch again, :
On this topic, nothing infuriates me more (and Dawkins) as indoctrination. No child should be referred to as a “Catholic Child” or “Muslim Child”, they should be known as a “Child of Muslim Parents” or a “Child of Catholic Parents”. Children are too young to know what they want or to believe, and pushing your beliefs onto your children is just plain wrong and immoral. Sure it may teach morals, but to that I ask you this,
[i]Is it good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good.[/i]
If it is good because God commands it, then how do we really know it is good. If God says, “Kill all babies”, is that really good? Our morals tell us no. But then you might say that God commands it because it is good. Then you are suggesting that good is external to God, in which case, why do we need God to work out our morals. If good is external than we can work it out on our own without God.
So what your saying is that the animals must be that way because God created them that way and evolution as such is wrong? Circular reasoning and a big fallacy.
So because you can’t fathom such a chance, it’s wrong? These arguments are so poor, it’s mindboggling.
I don’t think you understand evolution entirely. See above. Of course you might say that life occurring is such a small chance and whatnot, and that scientists can’t replicate it. But, it only has to happen once. And it happened.
A113: I’m not even going to bother with you. See above and learn something.
Yeah…that’s definitely God’s work /sarcasm. Consider that person very lucky.
I find that quite ironic.
This just infuriates me. I can agree with you on definition of science. But to say that Evolution hasnt been observed and provide no evidence? What the freak? What about Charles Darwin? He studied evolution and found it to be a plausible theory which is now accepted by the majority of the scientific community (a.k.a people with far greater intelligence than any of us here). That’s all science is, theories about everything. If the theory is wrong, it’s changed and modified. Just like if scientists find evidence on the contrary to Evolution, they would change it. But right now, Evolution is the best answer we can provide presently.
I find the only leg for religious people to stand on is Fideism, that is, one cannot prove the existence of a God/s, so one must have faith.
Here are a bunch of random points in this topic I’ve been thinking about:
-I used to question how God came to be, and how he could have made the world in 6 days (7th day rested). I don’t think God wants to hurt our brains by challenging us to ponder that, because I don’t think we can reach a long theory. And even if we do, it’ll be a pointless answer, because, well, it would be no use! It’s so much easier to just believe that He always was in existance. It’s that simple. Yes, once you get deeper into that, you’ll get confused and have doubt, but we have to remember that He is God, and He has more power than us. We are not God, so we cannot reach that kind of explanation, and don’t have to. Asking where God came from is like comparing him to His creation. Well, He is different and higher than us, so possibilities are unlimited for Him.
Also, you can’t see Him, just like you can’t see the wind, but you can see the wind’s effects, and God’s work. Some things you gotta have faith. You’ll save time that way, too.
-Those skulls and ancient fossils people found that apparently is proof of evolution may not have been what we think! This seems like a weird idea, but who knows? We don’t know everything God created, every little detail. The Bible would be way too thick just describing everything! Those skulls and stuff discovered, and claimed to have been a prehistoric man that was part ape…yes, it exists, but maybe we just need to see it differently.
Perhaps we made a discovery to one of of the animals we cannot see today. Perhaps a different type of ape that is extinct now, but was alive back then. People are just reaching the wrong conclusion.
-Did Pangea exist? I don’t know about that one. Perhaps all the continents were together once, so the world’s land and countries were closer. That would have made it easier for people back then to travel and spread across the Earth. But the idea of Pangea is also with the idea of “millions of years ago”. Unless people are half-right? This is just my theory, but maybe it was all one landmass back then. And they broke apart quicker than “millions of years this, millions of year that”. But then they slowed down more and more and more…Would that be a good explanation?
-Our galaxy functions amazingly. Our planet is in the just-right distance from the sun. And all those orbits! Absolutely astounding. Like trains going on their tracks this way and that way, and they don’t crash into each other. The moons, the planets, the sun and other stars- it’s like a work of art. If you say it was just an accident, well, then wouldn’t an accident cause disaster?
I rather like these threads. Yeah, no one ever changes someones point of view, but I usually learn something new. I’m, by no means, any sort of expert or even student of evolution, mind you. And there are many Wikipedia links but considering these are hot pages they have a large number references on each page. To bad A113.
The oldest human is a little over 100. Doesn’t mean humans have only been around for 100 years. Same for the reef.
A few fake samples does not render all other finds fake as well. The tooth was never really considered to be true by scientist anyway. ref
"the total mass lost in 5 billion years amounts to only a few hundredths of a percent of the sun’s total mass."ref
It was all an accident. Someone’s gotta win the lottery after all. Think of all those untold plants and solar systems where the conditions aren’t there for life. Read some on statistics. Even if there’s a 1:99999999 chance of rolling a certain die, it can happen the first time you roll. And the second time you roll, there’s still the same chance of it happening. We just happen to be here to experience it.
If it works for you, more power to ya. I rather question everything.
Never really comes up though I’m pretty sure they believe in evolution. I was raised Roman Catholic (which is a great way to turn someone atheist)
There are many. Here’s the Wikipedia article that even has a heading concerning the assumption that there are no transitional fossils.
It’s just a mutation. They can be harmful or helpful or do nothing at all. Peppered Moth for example which you can read about at this link because this is going to be a long post already.
We’re talking evolution here not the big bang. Please keep your scientific theories separate.
I’d like to get philosophical here and say that while, say, the first shot of the American Revolutionary war caused disorder at the time, it has since then lead to much calm and prosperity.
So you agree there is evolution going on and that it’s existence does not necessarily negate that of a god?
Because scientists measure and test and refine their ideas. They don’t simply accept something and never question it.
A lot of literature references real places and evens. It’s no evidence that the characters in the book itself were real. Hunchback of Notre Dame, Three Musketeers, Robin Hood, etc.
Well many great things have come about due to religion, ancient Greece temples, Bach; but so have many terrible things; the crusades, Spanish inquisition, the 9/11 attacks. I would like to think of religion as a starter on a car. A boost to humanity’s start that can some day be let go so we can take over our own future.
There’s very interesting stuff in the old testament so don’t gloss over it.
Ignoring the lack of any proof, why didn’t god save her instead of taunting by saving the eggs in the trunk? “god works in mysterious ways” is the usual answer.
Except that evolution is a constant never ending process so technically every singly fossil is in the process of ‘evolving’.
Not necessarily. evolution makes no claim to how life was started, just how it progressed. What I and many others object to is creationism being taught in a science class.
I my self am a Christian, I love it, and why not! Do I care if I’m right or wrong, NO! Because someday when I kick the bucket I will know. Either way, I’m good to go!
I find no reason not to be a Christian, if you mock me, go ahead and try, see what happens If you want to debate all night about who is right or wrong, dude, be my guest. I think a couple of these posts are just a tad long too.
Good ole Pascal’s Wager? ‘a person should “wager” as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose.’
I do not think even Pascal took his wager seriously. Why would God allow someone into the Kingdom of Heaven just because they didn’t want to cop out and go to Hell so were covering their bases? And what if you are praying to the wrong God. Pascal’s Wager is a very poor argument and should be taken lightly.
Hold up ! You got me all wrong, didn’t meen it to come out like that, I have been a Christian all my life and I take it very seriously! I was talking to the people with other beliefs(saying that, no matter what happens God has got my back.
I pray to my God,and Lord Jesus Christ, and no matter what happens when I die, I beleive that the Lord will take me in. Don’t assume( someone you don’t know) that I don’t take my faith seriously! DUDE!
You can keep debating just watch it, though. Because people DO take it to heart, so keep it cool.
bawpcwpn: First of all, please don’t be so mean. Until you came along, this was a very friendly debate between friends. Please do not make any more personal attacks, okay? If you keep doing this, you’re going to suck all the fun out of this thread. Please don’t; we’re having such a good time. I would like an apology.
Okay, first of all, i’m going to ignore anything from Dawkins, mainly because he does not understand the Bible as well as Christians who haven’t even read it.
The answer to why an all-loving God would allow bad things to happen to us is simple: We deserve it. Moving on…
It really does look like that. For exmaple, one idea of why Earth is always in orbit is because of the Sun’s gravity and inertia, right? But how would that work if other planets such as Mercury are closer to the Sun?
This is all a matter of faith.
In the beginning God…or
In the beginning kaboom!
Which will you believe?
This can not be put into the scientific method, so it’s taken by faith, and without proof. A humans with tails do not prove it.
Show me one.
It may seem that way to evolutionary atheists, but Christians have actually learned many things from the flaws of the theory of evolution.
[quote=“bawpcwpn”}Children are too young to know what they want or to believe, and pushing your beliefs onto your children is just plain wrong and immoral.[/quote]
I smell…an ageist. sniff sniff No science here.
I don’t believe in luck. Sorry.
What about Charles Darwin? He published it as a theory, like it is. But somewhere along the timeline, people started teaching it as fact in schools, and that led to a revolution against God. They are basically make-believing their way to the enemy, who planned this whole outrage in the first place. He’s taking billions with him.
That’s a matter of faith. It’s either… I believe God designed this world for us to live in until we go meet Him.
or I believe we’re the remains of an explosion, and we came from monkeys, Hoo-hoo-haaaa!
We all know that Wickedpedia is not the place to go. Give me another link.
No, there is no evidence for evolution. They all make it up. The Bible, on the other hand, has many details. For example,
Seashells have been found on mountains.
Evolutionists guess…there was a very tall ocean in the beginning of Earth’s history.
Christians know…it was because of Noah’s Flood, right there in my Bible! How awesome is that?
Seems like a strange idea, but here’s my guess. How do we not know that those fossils that are considered “evolution in process” are actually different species of fish and other creatures all along? I bet a long time ago, there were more animals than right now. Perhaps we’ve uncovered many extinct animals, but just because they have something in common, people take it as “evolution”.
I think bawpcwpn has been correct. He didn’t insult anyone ; where you think you see a personal attack, I see an invitation to think better.
Do you actually believe that ? Do you think there’s no such things as unfairness ? People suffer, whether they’ve deserved it or not.
Considering the Big Bang idea being abusively compared to an explosion, you may need to rethink that sarcasm.
The Big Bang was actually the time when the universe started to expand. Scientific observations showed that the universe is still expanding.
Trust me, there’s many more to learn.
Oh, yeah. Darwin is evil. Too bad he’s dead. But thankfully, mean scientists and dangerous teachers have arrived to pursue his great trickery.
Hey ! I have an idea ! Why couldn’t I say exactly the opposite thing ? Let’s see…
[i]No, there is no evidence for creation. They all make it up. Evolutionists theories, on the other hand, have many details. For example,
Seashells have been found on mountains.
Christians guess… it was because of Noah’s Flood.
Evolutionists know… there was a very tall ocean in the beginning of Earth’s history.[/i]
Sounds good, doesn’t it ? See, there’s absolutely no valid argument in what you said. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have been able to do that. I guess I could have done the same thing to your entire post, actually.
To conclude this post, I’ll say that I agree with everything bawpcwpn said. He obviously knows his stuff. I couldn’t have put better that he did.
A special note to Mitch : I find it extremely odd that you identify yourself with Remy in Ratatouille, when you’re more like Django to me. Let me remain you that one scene we were disscussing the other day on this topic, so that you see what I mean : Django : This is the way things are; you can’t change nature. Remy : Change is nature, Dad.
By the way, four hundred years ago, the Church banned the idea of Heliocentrism, being absolutely sure the Geocentrism was true. Since then, things have evolved.
Maybe history will repeat itself one day.
This is not so Evo vs Cre, but a couple of things thing: Go is BIPOLAR. He loves you until you do the SLIGHTEST thing wrong and then HE SENDS YOU TO A BURNING PIT TO BE IN ETERNAL TOREMENT! and a meglomaniac because he created creatures for the sole purpose of worshipping him. Another thing. God Knows EVERYTHING. That includes the future. so WHY does he create humans who he knows are not going to believe in him? That’s not very loving. also he KNEW Lucifer was going to turn EVIL and become satan so why did he create him?
You got it wrong with the first one. It’s not when you do the slightest thing wrong- He is a forgiving God, too. His temper is not that harsh. It’s when you doubt He exists.
Second, think about this. He created the Earth and provided things we need. He created us, and living things all around us. Jesus Christ even died for our sins. You might say “Oh, if He is the Son of God, then why didn’t He just get off the cross?” It’s because He wanted to feel our pain in this world, and show us he loves us enough to die for us. To show us that He will take a punishment so that we can follow Him and be less frightened. Think about how painful that was! He really loves us and cares for us. Doesn’t THAT deserve worship? What He wants in return is for us to acknowledge the things He has done, and praise Him for it. Think about all He’s been through. We should praise Him for doing great things. If that’s not enough for you, then what else, do you want Him to go through it again? Isn’t once enough?
What about the rock layers. They are all out of order messing up the radioactive dating system. Take the Grand Canyon for example…also another example is the explosion at mount saint helens…the river bead possesses coal that was created by the ash. Coal is created in many many years scientists say…but this one was created in what 15 years!!
Then again, God made man from the “dust of the earth”, as it were, which is just as hard to believe. I’d rather rest in the comfort of knowing that I was created from a being of higher intelligence than some… microscopic particles.
Greatest teacher, ever!]
Perhaps all the continents were together once, so the world’s land and countries were closer. That would have made it easier for people back then to travel and spread across the Earth. But the idea of Pangea is also with the idea of “millions of years ago”. Unless people are half-right? This is just my theory, but maybe it was all one landmass back then. And they broke apart quicker than “millions of years this, millions of year that”. But then they slowed down more and more and more…Would that be a good explanation?
Moving on…
