no the lake next to Mt. St. Helens has coal that is 15 some years.
The Grand Canyon is (25 bill years) [cough] 4,000-4,500 years old.
What were your question walle…i didn’t get them. (just repost them in different format. (unless evolutionists can’t stand up to them.)
God Knows EVERYTHING. That includes the future. so WHY does he create humans who he knows are not going to believe in him? That’s not very loving. also he KNEW Lucifer was going to turn EVIL and become satan so why did he create him?
for his own pleasure…his ability to have man who was perfect and enjoy him…but satan left becuase oviosuly they have choices as much as we do. That caused diversion and God now wants to bring us back by conquering sin and death and by making us pure again. Its for his pleasure and enjoyment that we are created.
Example…don’t you pride in something that you created, if that somehting goes wrong do you want to fix it? Of cource you do so you search and find that one problem and gegt rid of it. Then you enjoy it once more.
“Because it’s god’s plan and we cannot begin to fathom it”
but we can see into the future through the bible (Revelations)
His plan is revealed and predicted through His Book and that is how we can get a glimpse of his plan.
For his own PLEASURE?
He creates people he KNOWS are going to burn in a fire forever for HIS OWN PLEASURE?
Here’s an idea of God’s plan:
Before time: God throws Lucifer out of Heaven because of his pride.
ca. 4004 BC: God creates time and matter, including Earth, animals, and humans.
Lucifer uses a serpent to deceive Adam and Eve into turning against God for a piece of fruit.
Sin enters God’s creation, causing mass destruction.
ca. 2348 BC: Noah completes the ark that God commanded him to build, and he and his God-fearing family enter the ark.
God sends a worldwide flood to destroy the rest of humanity, because of their rebellion against Him.
God recreates the underwater Earth.
ca. 2349 BC: Noah and his family exit the ark and take care of the earth.
God presents the first rainbow as a gift and a symbol of His promise that He will never again destroy Earth by a flood.
ca. 4 BC: Humans have turned against God again, so God sends His only Son Jesus to save the world.
ca. 30: Jesus is crucified for blasphemy, bearing the sins of humanity.
Jesus’s tomb is found empt; He is risen!
Jesus commands His disciples to spread the Good News to every part of our planet, and returns to Heaven.
ca. 1007 before the end of time: Christians, alive and dead, are taken instantly from Earth to Heaven in the Rapture.
ca. 1000 before the end of time: Jesus returns to Earth to rule it.
Satan is bound in hell.
The end of time: God throws all non-Christians into hell to be tormented day and night, for over 221976502654026421435087164356430574325 years.
God welcomes all Christians into Heaven to be joyous every day, for over 221976502654026421435087164356430574325 years.
Heaven and hell have no end.
God reigns with His people for eternity, and they live happily ever after. 
So why did God create Lucifer in the first place if He knows the future? Because He has a plan.
He didn’t create man to be bad that was man’s choice. He created man to be perfect. When we choose to do bad he hated us and the penalty for that glitch was death.
Well, I’m not going to be able to reply to all of these posts, as I’m barely keeping up as it is! But I’m pleased that this conversation is continuing in a somewhat subdued manner. Somewhat. 
A113, you said this before-
I have to say, I find that comment perhaps a tad patronising…Sort of. Just because it implies that those who believe that life did evolve are stupid, when they just have a different viewpoint.
In my case, I don’t ‘believe’ that we evolved in terms of faith or that sort of thing. When it comes to evolution versus creationism, and I’m asked, ‘which one are you more convinced by?’, I’d have to say evolution. I always would. It makes more sense to me.
But yes, I can understand the valid points that you and others have made. Though there is a pattern that instead of proving the theory of creationism, most seem more certain when disproving the theory of evolution. Just something I’ve noticed, that’s all.
I’ll always be on the border, in a sense…But a sort of lopsided one. I’ll never believe or have faith in creationism, but at the same time, I won’t put all my eggs in one basket and say that evolution is true. I think anyone who does that, (on either side), is just a bit silly. Personally, I’m happy not knowing exactly where we’ve all come from. I just think the world would feel a bit empty if we knew our origins for certain.
I’m pretty open to all religions, not only Christianity, but the one thing that grates me a little when it comes to the Bible is the idea that if you don’t believe in Jesus and God and so forth, you will be punished (as has been mentioned by someone else previously, I forget who.)
Isn’t that a bit…scary? Oh, whoops, I was brought up in a predominantly Muslim country, but actually, Christianity is true. Now I’ve died and I have to go to hell because I’ve been worshipping the wrong god, as such. (As an example). The God of Christianity seems both loving, forgiving and yet somewhat exclusive- He seems to get annoyed at the idea of people worshipping some other God, or not worshipping Him at all, even if it isn’t their own fault.
Anyway, the thing is, I find the Devil to be much more fascinating than God. Along with the Grim Reaper, I find him to be such an incredible character that has been interpreted in so many ways, sometimes amusing, sometimes purely evil. Is it blasphemy to say I prefer the Devil to God? And deeply believing in Christianity sort of means that in turn, you believe in the whole good vs. evil thing, which also doesn’t rub well with me. I’ve read so many books, in particular, one by a Professor of Psychology called Phillip Zimbardo, who conducted the most fascinating experiment on how the human mind can be warped by its surroundings, that show that any normal person is capable of evil things.
In this experiment, Zimbardo got a group of normal, average college students (all of which were psychologically balanced at the time) and put them in a prisoner/guard situation, where some were prisoners and others were guards. Within days, the guards had turned into what we could quite easily label as ‘evil’ people, treating the prisoners with no respect whatsoever, making them clean the toilets with their own tongues, waking them up every three hours throughout the night, that sort of thing.
After the experiment, they were shocked at their own behaviour. But they’re not evil people at all- the intensity of the situation caused them to react in this way, although they could’ve got through the experiment in a much calmer manner.
Okay, I’ve really drifted now. Basically, I don’t believe in ‘good’ or ‘evil’, just in people in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
bright dot-dasher- Just had a skim through your post, and you’ve made some interesting points there. Liking the plane analogy, especially.
I find your personification of God Himself really interesting. You describe him as someone who obviously feels emotions such as pride, and who is a bit annoyed at people not giving him due credit for what He has created. This personification of the being that has created everything supports my personal theory that we have created God as a support, as someone to rely on as we would our family and friends, and Him being more human-like means that we are, in a way, guilt-tripped into believing in Him. I guess it’s the personification that I can’t handle very well, because whenever someone talks about God in that way, I just can’t help but think of the stereotypical ‘bloke with a beard in the sky waving a magic wand’ image. It’s just the association I have. It’s a very human thing to do, to personfy things- Pixar is the perfect example! Others saw a lamp, Lasseter saw a mother. We all long to relate to someone or something, and unfortunately, there are those out there who do not have the comfort of others to support them through difficult times. For Christians and those of other religions, there is God, and what a comfort He must be.
Anyway, back to your original post, good points there. I’m interested in that DVD about the animals- it sounds fascinating!
Mitch- Referring to you losing your art kit, praying, and then finding it again, that’s pretty cool.
Believe it or not, I have tried prayer before…As I previously said, my father is Catholic, and when I was younger, he’d…well, not force me to pray, but it was heavily implied that I SHOULD pray and that if I didn’t, I wasn’t a ‘good’ person. I don’t hold anything against my Dad for doing this- it’s what he believes after all, which is fair enough- but even then, I just couldn’t get it. I’d pray that things would get better when they were bad, and nothing changed.
Then, one day, I made the changes myself, and it worked. I realised that praying for something wasn’t the same as actively going out there and doing it. For example, I’ve always felt so much for those in less economically developed countries. That there is such an unfair spread of wealth in the world really upsets me. I’d think about this every day, not praying as such, but they were always in my thoughts. Nothing’s changed. There are still lots of people starving, sadly.
In my gap year, I plan on travelling to a LEDC and actually physically helping- I’ve heard about projects where you help build a school and that sort of thing. That’s exactly what I want to do, be it for only a short amount of time, and in my opinion, that’s more effective than prayer. Of course, prayer is not a bad thing either- thinking good thoughts and being hopeful for others could never be a bad thing! But as long as these thoughts are accompanied by actions, prayer can be effective.
Yeah, there’s the hope thing. As an atheist, it seems there is no hope for me. When I die, that’ll probably be it. I mean, think about it- the end. Not being alive. Our brains can’t actually imagine itself not existing. It’s beyond our reach of thought. And death is a very, very scary thing, unless you’re at peace with your God and your religion. I can completely understand why religion exists, and the amount of good it has done is immeasurable. But unfortunately, it divides people. It’s sad how a good thing can be manipulated into something not as good.
I’m probably going down a bad route here, but is it me, or are Americans more…religious? Not all Americans are, of course, and I’m not trying to generalise at all- everyone can think for themselves. It’s just that, going back to politics, there seems to be a lot of religion involved in American politics whereas over here, politics and religion are two completely separate things. I’ve no idea what our Prime Minister believes in, and I don’t really care, as long as he’s trying to run the country (which apparently he isn’t, but that’s another thing. ) I’m not trying to be racist or anything, honestly, it’s just that a high proportion of Americans I personally have communicated with seem to be quite religious. I’m feeling tentative about saying it, but I’m just relating to the earlier point of how we are brought up affects who we are in later life. In the nature vs. nurture debate (another interesting argument!), nine times out of ten, I’ll go for nurture. The environment in which we are brought up is, I think, such a big factor as to who we are later on in life, even if we don’t always realise it.
WALL-E- I like the points you’re making, even if you’re making them in a funny way. Your post about God and pleasure made me laugh.
Al-Bob- I see what you mean. But doesn’t that mean that we simultaneously have a choice and don’t have a choice? Like, we can choose to live how we live- I could go out and murder someone right now- and that would be a bad thing. But that’s not a choice because God has a plan, so he planned for me to murder someone, if you see what I’m getting at. Like, if God created everything and left us all to our own devices, then fair enough- by doing bad things, we’re being punished as we deserve to be. But if He has a plan, then doesn’t that mean that’s He already knows who’s going to be bad and who’s going to be good? And in that way, He has created bad people? These paradoxes are getting too complicated for this time in the evening.
Yet another long post. Once again, anyone who I’ve replied to, please don’t take any of this personally. I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from.
Nice to have to posting again, lizardgirl!
[quote=“lizardgirl”}I have to say, I find that comment perhaps a tad patronising…Sort of. Just because it implies that those who believe that life did evolve are stupid, when they just have a different viewpoint.[/quote]
Sorry about that. I didn’t mean it that way.
That’s okay. I’m kind of upset that God designing science seems harder to understand than KABOOM!, but believe whatever you want to believe.
That is interesting. And true. I feel 100% certain about disproving evolution, but when i try to scientifically prove creation, i often wonder if it’s even possible.
I understand what you’re saying, and i think i know why.
People are afraid of the truth. If they’re not Christians, and find out that Christianity is real, then that means they’re going to be punished in hell forever. If that’s not scary, i don’t know what is. hat’s why people convince themselves that it’s not real, so they don’t have to scared of hell.
But Christians aren’t scared of hell, either.
Who wins in the end? Someone’s gotta lose.
That’s because you’re not following God.
What, in your opinion, makes murder and love equal?
I’m a Christian, and i can tell you exactly how we feel about God.
We love Him.
We fear Him.
That’s really confusing to a non-Christian, so i’ll try to explain.
God cares for us.
God will throw non-Christians into an everlasting fire.
He’s not a teddy bear or a good witch of the north; He’s the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and we must respect Him.
Then how can we love such a powerful Guy?
He’s a great Ruler. His laws never fail to work. And most of all, He loves us.
I’ve said it twice, and i’ll say it again. The Catholics are wrong.
That’s why atheists are so sad so often. They think that their lives are mistakes. 
I really feel sorry about the way that true atheists think about themselves. But based on reading some of your previous posts, you don’t seem that sad. I doubt whether or not you are really an atheist.
He also created free will, so that we would not obey Him like it’s our directive; we’d obey Him because we want to. That’s true love.
Oh, it’s no problem at all. 
You seem much wiser than most atheists i’ve talked to.
Say, for Instance, I am a muslim. My beliefs are pretty much the same as yours, our gods are also pretty much the same. Since I am not a christian. will I [size=167]BURN!!![/size]?
Oh yeah !
And since I’m an atheist, I will burn too. For real this time. Forever. The afterlife will be fun for me. I can’t wait !
I’m 95% athienst too, it was just a for instance.
I did understand you were atheist What about the remaining 5% ?
There may be a hint of agnosticism somewhere in me.
That’s not true. Mohammed was a pedophile.
A113- Once again, you’re on the border of being ever so slightly condescending. But perhaps that is because you’re so certain that you’re right, and I’m happy to be proven wrong.
It wasn’t really just ‘kaboom’, though. I might’ve said this before, but I’ve studied Physics (not to a particularly high level, but high enough to have a basic grasp of its theories). I’ve watched programmes which explain the Big Bang theory, I’ve read about it, and so forth. Stephen Hawking is one of my greatest idols, academically. The way he can explain the universe using theories which, okay, aren’t always proveable but make so much sense otherwise is something I’ve always admired in him. There has been a lot of study around and about the Big Bang, and from what I’ve read, it makes a fair bit of sense.
But the Devil encompasses humanity so much more than God seems to. Lucifer, Satan, whatever he’s called, is the dark side of humanity, and is a part of all of us. We all have a dark side, whether we’re religious or not. The study I mentioned before about the normal students doing bad things was conducted in America, and involved both those who are religious and those who are atheist. The religious people reacted in the same way as the atheists, even with their faith by their side.
Murder and love can be equal. I’m going to be silly and use a TV show that I watch as an example. There’s this guy, this character, that I absolutely adore (voice of the GEICO Gecko, by the way). His character is in a bad position- his brother has taken over his family, and he know wants for his brother to be killed. Literally. A part of me is like, ‘okay, I know you’ve been through a lot of pain and suffering, but is this necessary?’ yet another part of me understands that he’s doing it for the love of his family.
It’s more complicated than that, but no matter. All I mean is that I believe every person is born pure, unadulterated. Their life experiences make them ‘good’ or ‘evil’, not because they’re inately one or the other, but because the human mind is conditioned into going one way or the other.
‘The Catholics are wrong’? Let’s be a little more open-minded, hmm? After all, my Dad believes a considerable amount of the same things that you seem to. Though his opinion has been changing over the past few years as I have carefully explained to him why I do not have the same viewpoint.
So, because I’m not sad, I’m not an atheist? Of course, I respect your viewpoints, though this is a bit much. Practically everyone I know is an atheist. Some of us are sad, some of us are happy. Thing is, we don’t think of ourselves as ‘atheist’. It just isn’t a factor in our lives. It’s difficult to explain, but it just doesn’t matter to us that much. I love science. I love scientific theories. I therefore cannot be religious, because religion usually doesn’t embrace science (note I say ‘usually’, not ‘always’.) Sometimes I’m sad, but I doubt that’s to do with being atheist.
Okay, so we obey him because we want to…But we don’t. Because for those of us that do obey him, he’s planned for us to obey him. It’s a circular argument.
I’d say the closest thing I have to religion is Randall. I don’t ‘believe’ in him. He isn’t real. I’m not so deluded as to go around thinking that an eight-limbed lizard monster is out there somewhere. But in times when I am feeling low, he’s there, in the back of my mind. I just have to think about the desperate, horrible situation he was put in, and I feel better about my own situation. I guess that’s my ‘faith’. I can see why people rely on things like religion, but I don’t feel that I need religion to be a better person. I’d be a bad Christian if I was one- I sin all the time. I lie, I bitch about others behind their backs, I can be very scheming, I swear, I do sometimes drink and smoke, and I don’t feel bad about it at all. I don’t feel as though I should repent. I’m happy as I am. I make mistakes, and I own up to them. My life’s pretty good, and it’s not as if my ‘sinning’ has hurt anyone else. But perhaps I’m being selfish.
And A113, similarly, you are much more wise than a lot of Christians that I’ve spoken to.
Religious does not always mean Christian, but i see what you’re saying. Obviously, these people were not Christians.
Ask your Dad what the meaning of life is.
I didn’t mean that; i just meant that you seem less stubborn and frustrated than most atheists i’ve talked to. Just an observation.
No. That’s not how it works. God created us all to love HIm.
I noticed a small hint of Randallism. You remind me of someone who collected things because she was sexually attracted to them. She pretty much worshipped them. Except you rlife doesn’t revolve around…does it?
Thank you, but that came from God. I’ll tell HIm you said that.
In the end…
Christianity = God
evolution = chance
neither = you
If God, then…you have nothing to fear.
If chance, then…you have anything to fear.
If neither, then…you.
Religion is created around the fear of death. It’s extremely obvious.
What’s extremely obvious is that you don’t seem to have anything to live for.