John Carter

Specialty Other Disney
#201

I didn’t choose Wells on purpose, my thesis was to find popular, well known sci-fi ‘period’ films from the same period as John Carter, in an attempt to understand why this movie fell so far short of expectations of most people. What could have been done to the story to avoid the cliche dialogue that turned off so many? How were the books adapted into successful movies and how did their remakes fare? The most popular sci-fi writers of the time were Verne, Wells, Burroughs and Hugo Gernsback. Please add others to this list if you think some injustice has been done, but these men are the most cited and translated.

My last post worked over Wells’ best known books turned into movies, so enough of him. Burroughs did the Tarzan series and the Barsoom (Mars) series, today referred to as the John Carter books, starting around 1912. There are a huge number of Tarzan films, but it’s not sci-fi. There haven’t been any Barsoom movies, until now. The Hugo guy isn’t read much at all nowadays, and no movies are made of his 2 novels. His main contribution was as a popularizer, in the magazines he published, a mish-mash of radio, electronics and stories for the excitable young lads.

Verne’s most famous works are from the 1860’s, long before the age of the atom, but well after Mary Shelley’s remarkable re-engineering of tissues. He did Journey to the Center of the Earth, Around the World in 80 Days, From the Earth to the Moon, and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea - yes, that’s with Capt. Nemo (no relation to our favorite fishie). In 1994 a previously unfound work of Verne’s was discovered by a relative in a safe: Paris in the Twentieth Century from 1869 with skyscrapers, auto’s, fast trains, and a more modern worldwide communications system. But despite all the modern conveniences, the hero of the story sank into depression. Since some of his earlier stories had been embellished/altered by relatives, this find was a bit fishey. But Verne has long been known as more ahead of his time than perhaps any other person in world history, outside of Da Vinci, so it could be authentic.

Most of his best have been made into movies, JtoCE in 1959 with Pat Boone and James Mason, AW80D with David Niven, and in 1954 Disney’s 20,000LUtheSea with Kirk Douglas and Mason. These were all big, impressive movies. Only Journey has been remade during our lifetime, in 2010 with Brendan Fraser and that one failed to excite the adult males who had seen the original. Verne must not have let his imagination run wild into poppycock, his movies are too well grounded in future technologies that turned out not to be fiction at all. Because of this, today his movies seem to be outlandish period adventures to us, usually plausible, sometimes scientifically unsupported, but the technologies he conceived of have come into being, so the wonder element has diminished.

As for Journey, there cannot be any immense caverns near the center of the earth, containing a veritable sea. This was swashbuckling, but bad civil geoengineering. The 1959 script wasn’t altered to correct these faults. The 2010 film does better science-wise, but is far less enjoyable, sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief and just sit back and enjoy the action, just like Carter’s over-the-top bounding about.

#202

There might be little correlation between adaptations of sci-fi “period” works. Gernsback and Burroughs were certainly not “hard” sci-fi authors, so it’s tough to compare them to Wells and Verne. Today’s moviegoers probably don’t care about source material as long as the trailer hooks their interest.

Based on multiple articles and interviews, it could be that Andrew Stanton was given too much creative control without checks and balances, a la Michael Cimino and Heaven’s Gate. Also, there seems to be an unfortunate, widespread delight at seeing Disney (and Pixar) folks stumble, probably due to perceived arrogance thereof. We’ll have to wait and see the final numbers, but it would be no surprise if John Carter ends up making around $300 million in worldwide box-office, which would not be profitable but also would not be a total disaster.

Looking forward to seeing the movie, probably next weekend.

#203

Yeah, he didn’t have the Pixar Way come his way during writing (Michael Chabon is not Pixar), so too much creative control without the checks and balances.

During research for these posts I’ve been making in this thread, I noticed that the book “John Carter of Mars” wasn’t released until 1964. Not having read any of these books, I’m just not sure what the differences are between this '64 release and the original series published in the '10’s. One very interesting tidbit was that Burroughs reminisced later in life that he had been reading lots of pulp fiction while selling pencil sharpeners and thought to himself how bad it was and that he could write at least that well! That’s not particularly reassuring!! LOL!!! If I were Andrew Stanton, that should have raised a few red flags…

I’ve been re-reading the “Art of Wall-E” book. In it Stanton and other Pixarites describe how they come up with a killer film: the idea, the story, the storyboards, the storyreel, character development, the animation process and music overlay. In CarterStanton was working with someone else’s story, not his own. He didn’t have complete creative control over all the little nuances that his actors would have to communicate to the audience. He is a perfectionist and redid a lot of takes. What impressed me about reading this is recently when he was asked about how it was like to switch from a photorealistic animated Wall-E to a heavy CG action Carter film. He answered that it was the same thing. Is it?

The lead actor, Taylor Kitsch, said he “was glad it’s over.” Maybe he didn’t want to continue, or didn’t like all the retakes, signed a multi-movie contract which isn’t going to materialize, has other movies coming like Battleship (didn’t they just retire the world’s last battleship = passe?) An Al-Quaida terrorist cell hijacks the Ghost Fleet, the mothballed fleet of about 100 ships sitting in Suisun Bay. They rendezvous with pirates off of Somalia and proceed to the Straits of Hormuz, where they threaten to bottle up the oil lifeline unless certain demands are met. However, a renegade group of Navy Seals hijacks the world’s last battleship with the help of a splinter group of Hispanic neonazi’s based in San Francisco, who are disgruntled because the local chapter wanted only Aryan looking members. The battleship goes over there and kicks some booty, to be sure…

#204

It looks like the 1964 edition is a reprint of a collection of stories first published in the 1940s and incompletely/partially written by ERB:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carte … collection

ERB is definitely more in the camp of pulp adventure than sci-fi. My intro to John Carter was via Marvel Comics in the 70s. JC seemed like Tarzan with Barsoomians instead of apes.

comicvine.com/john-carter-wa … s/49-2907/

Perhaps TK’s gladness that it’s “over” was about the building pre-release suspense over how badly the movie would perform.

#205

Yes, it might be true**, not having actually read the 1964 version of ‘Barsoom’ or any of the '10’s books. This really hit a nail for me, what you’re saying, when I just reread a part of “The Art of Wall-E” where they hint that the last two acts of Wall-E involving the gels were quite complex, and when they understood that no one really cared about the gels, and thus the outcome of the movie, and had to dump most of those last two acts, that action had to be substituted. This is a big criticism of Stanton’s opus, even by generally favorable critics, and Up too, where the critics felt that both movies had to ‘devolve’ into chase scenes. Of course, how many animated movies don’t have lots of action in them? Hmmm? You spend nearly $180M on a movie and you had better pack it in with kiddies and families. Even a lot of adults want the action, not an arts film.

Earth has been more complex too in the past. And not with just bigger creatures, we have had “complex” intelligent life forms coexisting simultaneously on our planet in previous times, Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals and the presumed Homo Floresiensus midget species on the island of Flores near Bali. Recent studies have shown that Neanderthals had larger brains beyond what is needed for muscle control and might have been individually smarter than their contemporary Sapiens neighbors, but that we are more social and apt to divide up responsibilities. Because of this, we evolved smaller brains: if you don’t use it, you lose it.

There is a good reason, come up with elsewhere, for inconsistencies with the Mars of John Carter and the Mars we know of today. The answer is that the Mars that John Carter somehow travels to is a dying planet of 3-4 billion years ago, not the dead or nearly dead one we see today. So he is displaced in space and time. This theory comes from Level_Head who posts here and at the Walleforum.com. and who actually saw the movie!

Wiki: “John Carter is a film based on the character, scheduled for release by Disney on 9 March 2012. Although the titles closely match, the film is based on earlier novels.” So it’s Not based on the '64 book release of two stories entitled “John Carter of Mars”, the only book in the series with such a name, or even close. This clears up some confusion for me. Thanks, JustSteve

Edit: JCofM dropped off 55% in the U.S. and a normal 40% overseas for its second weekend. However, if you don’t include its release in China, the overseas drop was 57% = bad news. People mag’s weekly box office roundup calls it a “sci-fi dud”. Ouch!

**Edit: on second thought, you have that problem in LordoftheRings. The problem was mostly solved by making it a 6 hour movie, broken conveniently into 3 parts. The previews for this movie were unsurpassed until Avatar came along. No one questions the very strong storytelling of Tolkien. The main character, Frodo, was tremendously empathetic. The music was grand. I watched The Two Towers a few weeks ago and was overwhelmingly impressed with the quality of so many aspects of its filmmaking. John Carter is too strong, not fragile enough in comparison. He only has his match in the [spoil]machine version of the ‘Gods of Mars’,[/spoil]or whatever they are. There were some criticisms by professionals that there wasn’t enough action in the movie. Rubbish. Some wanted an older man of means. Ok, then how is an ‘older man’ going to realistically be able to do all the action scenes? A guy 35-40 years old being the dynamo that Taylor Kitsch is? The are good criticisms and there are bad criticisms of this movie.

#206

Well, it’s embarrassing, but now, with hours to go before the debut of the potential monster, Hunger Games, I have yet another post to post here. But this time, I’m throwing open the question:

How would you make John Carter better? The screenplay, the cast, any part of the movie, you’re on the hotseat: John Lasseter has just called you on your cell phone (A.S. was too embarrassed) “xxx we need you now, more than ever. We’ve got a problem in the MouseHouse. It’s still not too late for those last minute changes. And don’t waste my time, be specific. Now one of my minions has been keeping up with this Pixarplanet site, I don’t read it, but he does, someone has to, and we have deduced that you, xxx, are the pivot man for the job. What was that, speak up…?!?”

Ok, here is my offering. [spoil]In the scene where one of the so-called Gods of Mars unleashes a small army of the Thargs to capture the Princess and Carter. John is too strong. He needs to use some actual brain power to kill half of them, by tactical advantage, instead of cheesy hack-n-slash. An open plain may not be the best here, some ruins or other terrain perhaps? By doing loops and picking them off in small groups or one-by-one, this would be more believable. He would decimate half the force and they would retreat. Then the leading ‘God’ would encounter the leader and scold him: “Look for his weakness, capture his women or get into close quarters and overwhelm him.” Then they would advance again, and this time Carter is in big trouble. The Thargs come into close quarters and another part of the force closes in on the women he is protecting. He sees this and uses a previously unknown ‘super power’ such as a loud shout. "NOOOOO…!!! This shout would echo off the canyon wall or a nearby pinnacle and unexpectedly seriously hurt the eardrums of those nearby in the force, stunning them, having them to cover their ears and making them easy kills. Then the big, big ship could make its entrance, saving the babes. Whoopie![/spoil]

#207

This was quite a solid, enjoyable movie, better than its reception suggests. Andrew Stanton did a great job with a vision of John Carter that balances between faithfulness to the source material and fresh perspective. The Edgar Rice Burroughs framing device was quite well done. If it was an expensive movie to produce, at least it was clear where the money went–the detail and complexity of the visuals was stunning yet mostly coherent. It was a little tricky to keep the players straight without a scorecard, but everything eventually became clear. More widely recognized faces and voices might have helped but also no doubt would have boosted the budget even more, so no complaint there. It’s too bad the original marketing materials missed an opportunity to play up the Burroughs/Tarzan angle, which might have been a way in for greater numbers of viewers. It’s possible that the level of concentration and attention required to appreciate the film is above what the average moviegoer wants to expend.

DHOSW: If I ever presumed to suggest making John Carter “better,” it would be in the category of sound and music. It could have been the theatre, but some of the dialogue seemed lost in the soundscape during battle scenes. Also, this was Michael Giacchino’s least distinctive/interesting score to date. A total departure from musical tropes for big-budget action-adventure movies would have been welcome.

Bottom line, John Carter deserves more box-office success than it will get, and that’s too bad. It’s more than good enough to enthusiastically recommend it.

#208

I feel so sorry for Andrew and everyone who worked really hard on this film, and that it hasn’t done well financially or critically.

#209

I’m not feeling too bad for him. He knew what he was getting into when he took the helm and demanded that large budget. Plus he’s still got Pixar and I’m sure everyone else will find jobs elsewhere.

#210

Disney needs to fire their marketing crew and hire folks who know how to market these films correctly.

#211

As noted earlier, Disney marketing lead MT Carney did leave (fired or quit, who really knows?). According to some reports, Andrew Stanton made it difficult for marketing folks to do their jobs, in that he controlled (either by design or unpreparedness) the shots available for trailers. Any way you slice it, normal patterns of marketing (reportedly) were not observed or enforced on John Carter, to its detriment.

#212

For me, the lack of background story for John Carter in the ads was one deficit. Maybe that would have revealed the [spoil]post Civil War vintage[/spoil]. If the marketing people had access to everything, they might have tried to show the [spoil]uber-leaping[/spoil] or some other major giveaway, and that would have been an unfortunate spoiler (like the balloon house in Up, critical spoiler). The thing is, in such an ad, you have to toss out multiple mouth watering ‘hooks’. The entrance into the arena shot, with the thousands of yelling Tharks, it certainly did look Star Wars, as some have said, and not even up to par with that film’s pod racing scene.

I saw SW episode 1 about the same time as John Carter (it wasn’t good that alien world desert movies came out at the same time). In that Lucas series, the heroes take multiple films to get buffed, because otherwise, it’s boringly easy. They also attain multiple abilities such as laser sword fighting, mind-over-matter, becoming one with the force and foreseeing danger. I’m not sure if John Carter trains or finds new skills in the later books. Lucas always used two completely different worlds in each of his films to liven things up, sometimes a world we had seen before, but always at least one new one. If you’re going to compare your movie to Star Wars, and they did, then it better be nearly as good. It wasn’t.

#213

I just saw it again, and while it’s not a masterpiece, it didn’t deserve to fail as miserably as it did.

So, this bombs but Avatar becomes the highest grossing picture ever?

That shows that justice doesn’t rule the world 8D

#214

^I agree. John Carter wasn’t fantastic, but I thought it better than the critics did. And I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I found Avatar to be ridiculously overrated.

#215

I agree with the last two post. And it seemed like people were against this movie as soon as the first pics appeared online. I wonder if Andrew went back to Pixar humbled. I wonder if anybody will ever give him a chance to do another live action movie as big as John Carter. And if they do, will the suits be in more control over what goes on.

#216

Disney sure did get this movie released on DVD in a hurry.

#217

All told, using standard formulas, Disney will probably end up with no more than a $110 million loss on John Carter, including DVD sales and licensing. That’s a hefty chunk of change, but nowhere near the $200 million writedown claimed when Rich Ross had to step down. Also, in the way of Hollywood Accounting, no doubt The Avengers more than makes up for it.

Prediction: Ten or more years from now, viewers will “discover” John Carter as a worthy addition to the action-fantasy catalog and label it “underrated.” At the very least, audience response to it will be more favorable than current critical consensus.

Looking forward to renting or owning the DVD…

#218

I concur with your prediction.

It wouldn’t be the first time.

#219

I liked this movie. It’s at least decent and certainly a good film to me. I had a little trouble understanding it the first time, so I just stopped it and decided to start over the next day. I was wondering if I would like the Tharks since it’s sometimes harder for me to warm up to alien characters, but they ended up being really fun. I like John Carter and Princess Dejah and the romance between them also became more interesting as the film moved along. Too bad it didn’t do well, I’ll probably be watching it another time soon.

#220

I thought it was good. I can see why people wouldn’t love it, but I enjoyed it.