Things that can be improved about Toy Story 3

Pixar's Feature Films Toy Story / Lightyear
#121

Good point! I think the reason why Toy Story 3 was such a huge disappointment from my perspective, was that I was used to having Pixar characters develop a lot. Toy Story 3 is a sequel to a sequel, and considering what the directors had to work with I’d say they did a pretty good job. I can admit that, but what I reacted on when writing this thread was the glorification that Toy Story 3 received from critics. So while I didn’t like Toy Story 3 of personal reasons, my main thesis here is that this is a mediocre movie that doesn’t deserve its critical reception.

I guess I should have done a better job clarifying that before. ^^

Hehe, obviously it did and thanks for your comment. :slight_smile:
I should probably thank you for your support too. My bashing of Toy Story 3 has been rather extreme to say the least, and your ability to, despite this, maturely compose a reply where you agree on some points, and constructively disagree on others, is remarkable.

Yeah, when I think about it, you are right about that. The entire first sequence with Bolt blowing up helicopters was as taken from a Michael Bay film. You made some other pretty good points as well, but I couldn’t quote your entire message. Just wanted to say I agree. My use of words might have been a bit harsh, no doubt. But I’m glad to see that I wasn’t the only one who was disappointed with some of the character personalities. :slight_smile:

Thanks! I actually picked Bolt, not only because it was a movie I really liked a lot, but also because it is a movie that a lot of people just simply “forgot about”. So in the end, it really wasn’t that memorable. But I like it nonetheless and felt that it would make a good example of a movie that, in the end, was pretty good, but all the same, was pretty (dare I say?) underrated.
I’m also overwhelmed with the politeness and maturity users on this thread as displayed. Despite my livid ranting. But what little criticism I’ve gotten on this thread made me realize that even though I’m not directly insulting individuals, bashing a movie too furiously can still be pretty indecorous. So I’ll definitely think of that in the future.

#122

Toy Story 3 was a bit of an enigma because Pixar originally thought Toy Story 2 was enough to suffice. Pixar really does care about their characters, and they saw that it was best to just move on from their and expand their horizons. In the meantime, everyone wanted more Toy Story, and Circle 7 even wanted to cash in on it. Pixar then saw that the only way to do the series justice was to provide some closure once and for all. The characters have stayed the same, because after 10 years, you wouldn’t want to pull anything too radical.
The one thing that was different, though, was that Woody was clearly the main character here (Buzz wasn’t AS important). Then again, this movie pretty much continues Woody’s struggle from Toy Story 2.

#123

this.

thank you.

i mean, i don’t think it was exactly ~mediocre because when i think of mediocre i think of stuff like bee movie and related things, so. but i really, really think there are plenty of other pixar films that aren’t getting nearly as much praise (i mean, they’ve all gotten praise, but not like this) as this one even though they’re far and away better, imho. there are plenty of animated films from last year (including how to train your dragon and tangled) that are being simply overlooked now because they’re not pixar films, even though i think both of those i mentioned are much better than toy story 3. this one simply didn’t feel…right. to me, at least. i just feel it wasn’t nearly as cleverly written as the first two. i also feel that, despite this being called the most ~emotional of the three, which might be true, the other two managed to work in emotion that i felt was more honest, while still keeping the movie fun. like jessie’s song in the second movie, i thought, was way more heartbreaking than most of the things the third movie had to offer.

just the fact that it has a 99% on rottentomatoes bewilders me (and on metacritic it’s getting scores pretty much on par with the first film and ~higher than the second film!), especially since i think a good chunk of pixar’s other films are much, much better all-around films.

okay sorry this is getting waaaay too long & rambly, haha. i’m going to just end this comment now and if someone replies or i reply to someone else i can pick up on it. ;x

(btw, zinem, just this morning i realized we own bolt on dvd ((how did i not know about this)). i guess it’s my brother’s or something, but after hearing you talk so passionately about it i think i’m going to give it a (or another, i guess - even though i liked it the first time) shot. :'DD)

#124

Alright. First of all you boast about all of Bolt’s apparent emotions and complexes whilst ignoring all of Toy Story 3’s. The character of Bolt himself was a rip-off of Buzz’s character arc from TS1. As for Woody being generic? Oh lord.

As for your viewing of the TS supporting cast? Ridiculous. How is a vainglorious dog, a nerdy hamster and a (yawn) streetwise cat (who come to think of it her backstory was an attempt to replicate Jessie’s) any better than Toy Story 3’s? When you narrow a character down to ‘a grumpy potato man’ it’s just insulting.

Bolt isn’t a terrible movie. It’s just unoriginal. You say it shows mental denial, identity crisis, self-realization and self-actualization. That’s all well and good, but I think that TS3 says a lot about life, death and friendship than any movie ever can and will.

#125

Bolt is not a rip-off of Buzz. The premise sounds very much alike, but the two characters have nothing in common when it comes to personality and, of course, visual appearance.

As written by Ryan Crackdell on MovieReviews.com “Although very much akin to Buzz Lightyear in synopsis, it’s played out more like The Truman Show, where realizations come about in layers and there’s a lasting push to become one’s self, not a character to be consumed through media.” Furthermore, while Bolt is a story about trust, loyalty and the many canine virtues that Bolt represents, Truman Show is more of an allegory for God and solipsism.

And you think that Toy Story 3 says more about life, death and friendship than any other movie, regardless of genre, can and will? That sentence alone should prove that you have no idea what you are talking about. And the fact that you find it “insulting” that I described a TS3 character as the “grumpy old potato man”, while in the same post calling Bolt unoriginal and accusing it’s charming titular character of being a rip-off, makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

As to Bolt’s sidekicks. I will never defend Rhino in any way. As far as I’m concerned, he is a shallow, simplistic character whose only function in the movie was to steal attention from the more important characters. Mittens DOES develop. She is an abandoned street cat who finds it hard to trust human beings. However, the cynical cat is inspired by Bolt’s innocent, sweet-natured view of the world. And she does embody some pretty important messages about how we humans treat our pets.

#126

I forgot to thank you for actually responding to me earlier. I’d have responded by now, except its clear to me there’s just no common ground to be found between us. Your definition of pop culture references are so far removed from most other peoples. You can’t even bother to remember the names of these very memorable characters (or at least pretend not to). Ones that have been with us since 1995. I can only echo others when I say that is insulting.

#127

Don’t worry, this happens sometimes.

#128

With regards to Ken’s apparent ‘closet homosexuality’, I have to side with the Toy Story 3 fans, but on the basis of a prejudicial misunderstanding. I think people are reading too much into Ken’s effeminacy. Some people interpreted Kevin from Up as a commentary on LGBT. That’s a bit of a stretch. It was a simple gender confusion, either because Russell automatically assumes an animal is a ‘he’ due to his immaturity, or because he did his research and thinks colourful birds are usually male, therefore assuming Kevin is a guy. Some folks think that Rainbow Dash from MLP is a lesbian metaphor. Again, the creator cleared that up in her blog, saying Dash was supposed to be a good role model for ‘tomboys’.

So we come to Ken. He wears an ‘ascot’, he walks funny, and is unusually clean and well-dressed for a bloke. Does this mean he’s automatically gay? Of course not! :slight_smile: Possibly, but not certainly. And as some TS3 fans have pointed out, he was enamored with Barbie from the very beginning. At no point in the film did he show affection for the same gender. So it is fairly safe to assume that he’s a hetero, through-and-through.

Not all cleanly-dressed and immaculately-groomed men are gays. They’re called metrosexuals, which frankly, is an annoying buzzword in my opinion. Not all hairdressers and fashion stylists are gays, although some are. Some transvestites aren’t even gays. Vetement in French means clothes, so trans-vestites are those who simply like to wear girly clothes. If anyone has watched Johnny Depp’s Ed Wood, you’d know they only have a fetish for female apparel. But they can still love the opposite gender. So really, I think zinem is jumping to conclusions when he says Ken is being portrayed as a Brokeback dude.

Unless one has clairvoyance, that’s quite a presumptuous statement, don’t you think?

What is pop culture? Can it be defined? Would one be faulted for not being familiar, with say, Phua Chu Kang, a TV character who’s a huge part of Singaporean pop culture? Or Crocodile Dundee, who is an Australian cult hero (and to an extent, around the world)? Would one fault me if I didn’t know who is Takeshi Kaneshiro, or what characters he’s played? How about if I share a different opinion on whether Steven Seagal’s movies are excellent entertainment? A British’s sense of pop culture would be different from an American’s. An academic, who studies Warhol and Foucalt, from a ten-year old who only knows Pokemon and My Little Ponies.

I’m saying this because it comes off as a bit arrogant when you deem a person who has a different definition of pop culture references, or doesn’t share the same view of Toy Story 3’s awesomeness, as “insulting”. Contrarian, perhaps? Yes, if you go by popular opinion of Toy Story 3, whereby most who have seen it say it is good and rarely come up with any criticisms of it. Cynical? Maybe, but he does offer valid supporting arguments. A bit flippant when referring to a few of the characters? Certainly.

But insulting, simply for having a different understanding of pop-culture? I don’t think so, in my humble opinion. :neutral_face:

#129

Admittedly my post about how I believed TS3 says ‘more about life and death than any movie can and ever will’ was something I didn’t really think about, being very late when I typed it. Sorry about that.

I’m just getting frustrated that zinem is insulting TS3 left, right and centre with his only argument being that supposedly “Bolt is better in everyway”. I’m getting quite sick of this whole argument (which I fail to understand WHY he would post it on a Toy Story message board) and shall let the critics and box office speak for themselves.

Also, thedriveintheatre thank you so much for that post. You summarised that whole thing beautifully.

#130

I assume we’re refering to America when we say these are pop culture references. Though, being American pop culture references, wouldn’t that mean no one else would get them? That being said, it wasn’t a problem in the first place.

#131

It can be frustrating when someone brings up criticisms of your favourite movie. I know because some people didn’t find HTTYD or Rango or LOTG as awesome as I did. But inevitably, some people will share the same opinion as you, and there’s some comfort in that. It’s how we handle those that don’t, that shows how tolerant and understanding we are of people’s different opinions.

What I’m advocating here is to actually ponder about the arguments he raised, and if you find that he is true in some aspects, there’s no shame in acknowledging that and learning some of the shortcomings of your favourite film. If he is wrong in some aspects, don’t get mad, get even. Counter his misunderstandings with calm and thoughtful rebuttals. That’s what I’d usually do, as I have done with my last post about his misintepretation of Ken’s character as a ‘closet homosexual’.

If you still find you can’t convince the other person to your way of thinking, then leave on a good note. This is simple forum equitette. I’d say “Fairy 'nuff, I do get that you have some reservations about this movie. I think it is great and there’s no problems with it. Let’s just agree to disagree. Smiley face” And then leave the thread to die a natural death. :slight_smile: If I dismiss the contrarian with a “You know what? You’re always gonna have a different opinion from us, and I think you are just playing different for not believing with all the critics and fans who say this is the best movie of 2010,” or something to that effect, I would comes off as rude and arrogant, wouldn’t I?

Yes, it can be quite annoying when you simply want to talk about how great a movie is and how the critics and your friends adore it, and then there’s this one contrarian who found several faults with it. zinem may not mince his words kindly, but he’s no Arnold White, IMHO. A huge Bolt fan, perhaps. But again, he ain’t a troll (as he admitted some good points about TS3).

My point, exactly. Not everyone understands American pop culture references (Including some Americans, too!). I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the last sentence, but IMHO, that IS the problem in the first place. zinem’s interpretation of pop-culture may be different from us. One may see a ‘Michael Bay’ reference in Bolt’s opening sequence, whereas if I never watched a Michael Bay film, I would’ve thought it was a ‘John Woo’ reference, or an ‘Inspector Rex’ reference, or maybe I wouldn’t have noticed it altogether and simply thought of it as an absurd, ridiculous action sequence. Likewise, people bring different interpretations to TS3 because of what they bring to the table from their experiences and knowledge of the world. :stuck_out_tongue:

With ‘pop culture’ being this subjective, it’s hard to be objective.

#132

To make things easier, what are some examples of ‘pop culture references’ that distract from main theme in Toy Story? There was nothing that I saw that really boggled me or struck me as something that would make it look dated.

#133

After having defended zinem, I’ll leave him to answer that one. I was defending him on the basis of people calling him out for not remembering all the characters’ names and that we must conform to a certain ideal of TS3 being an excellent movie.

But personally, I don’t think there’s much pop-culture references in Toy Story 3. They did play on a lot of tropes and cliches from prison movies (Lotso and Chatter’s speeches are great examples), as well as the opening sequence, which bears similarities to Bolt in terms of genre spoofing. Although in TS3’s case, they went a step further and added ‘alien invasion’ and ‘giant monster’ movies into the mix.

But as for specific pop-culture references, a la Shrek or Shark Tale? I can’t really think of any examples from memory.

#134

There may be some, but it doesn’t matter unless it distracts you from the movie in some form or another, that’s all I’m getting at.

#135

i know this comment wasn’t really ~directed at me, but i’m going to shamelessly reply anyway. hope you don’t mind, lol.

honestly, it’s not the (multiple) pop culture references that really bothered me (although i was really displeased with the usage of several 70’s pop songs in the film, considering pixar’s never done that before and those really might make it dated in the future). i mean, it’s not like the first two films didn’t have pop culture references, anyway.

honestly, i think the thing that detracted (or distracted, i guess) from the main theme was the over-the-top emotional manipulation. that’s what really did it for me; i felt it was literally begging for us to feel something, anything, instead of letting the emotion come naturally. i was left feeling rather cold and underwhelmed.

#136

.
Wall-E had ‘La Vie En Rose’, and Finding Nemo had ‘Beyond The Sea’ (albeit in the end credits), so Pixar has in fact done pop-culture references before, only with good taste and with evergreens as opposed to Shrek’s use of contemporary rock bands. But who knows? Perhaps the songs used in Shrek will become evergreens one day. Or not! :slight_smile:

If you watch movies like Up, or Pirates of the Carribean, or Saving Private Ryan or whatever, they used mainly original music and orchestrals. The fact Pixar had to resort to covers from four decades ago surprises me, as they’d usually be more smarter than that. HTTYD, LOTG, Despicable Me, and Tangled all had original music (except for their end credits) throughout the movie, and you remain immersed in their story as opposed to being ‘snapped out’ and remembering, hey, isn’t that a Frank Sinatra number or something.

Haha, I’m glad it’s not just me. Again, to use other movies, Tangled, for example, had a sweet and happy ending, but it brought me to tears because [spoil]Rapunzel meeting her parents again[/spoil] felt so natural and wasn’t drawn-out. HTTYD also had a semi-happy bittersweet ending like TS3, but it didn’t choose to dwell on the sad outcome for Hiccup. They showed it to the audience, Hiccup reacts, Toothless comforts him, and they both step outside to a glorious new world. LOTG- again, semi-happy bittersweet ending. Poor Soren goes through a carthatic event, but emerges the hero. They didn’t linger on the heartbreak.

Whereas with TS3, they really snapped the heartstrings with the ending. I am not kidding you, several (some would say, inconsiderate) audience members in my theatre actually laughed when Andy did that long gaze with Woody and the little ‘gasp’ of epiphany at the end. Pixar always had subtlety and understatement when it comes to its endings- look at how quiet and poignant Monsters Inc was, when Sully slowly opens the door and smiles. Or Up, with its single shot of the house on Paradise Falls. Wall-E ended barely a minute after he was revived with a simple zoom-out shot.

I know that Lee Unkrich and the scriptwriters wanted to do justice to the final curtain call on a legacy fifteen years in the making. But I practically heard violin strings playing in the background when Andy lingers on Woody, like they were trying to extract a tear from every member of the audience. They were straining for greatness, and that made TS3 ‘jump the shark’ for me.

Again, this is only one aspect that I didn’t like about the movie. I still love it, just that I don’t think it’s a particularly stellar effort from Pixar as the rest of the world seems to think.

#137

I’m trying to stay out of this, but how are a couple of 70’s pop songs that were used jokingly for maybe half a minute tops going to make the entire movie seem really dated in the future?

#138

that’s actually a pretty good point, but whoever originally asked what kinds of pop culture references were there at all that distracted/detracted/whatever from the main storyline and i just decided to jot down some things that mattered to me ~personally. maybe the rest of the world doesn’t care. i just found it to be kind of…i dunno…tacky? which doesn’t surprise me, considering it’s one of my pet peeves. i typed that knowing that a lot of people probably wouldn’t agree because i tend to be really nitpicky when it comes to a lot of things. so maybe in 20 years it won’t matter and the film will still be fine.

okay, i’m just going to stop because i’m rambling. i tend to do that when i type. D:

#139

Wow. This thread has really exploded. :stuck_out_tongue:

But, anyway. I agree with Zinem on some things, and with TDIT on others. I truly believe TS3 is a good movie, but I also believe it is vastly over rated. But so is every Pixar movie except Cars and ABL, by my reasoning. Now, I say by my reasoning, because a movie’s being over rated or not is entirely subjective. I mean, if you dislike a popular movie, you probably think it is over rated. If you love it, you probably think it deserves what it gets, no matter how much it does get. I love TS3, but I have many gripes which I have outlined numerous times on this board. I’ll side with Zinem here because I’ve been attacked several for disliking some movies and liking others, and it’s not fun. Maybe you guys should consider that, and speak more friendly and less violently. Because being rude and arguing will not make him or you like TS3 any more or less. Point blank. You can disagree politely, you know. It is doable.

EDIT:bitsandpieces, I hate the older songs they used as well. They are over played, and I think it distracts from the plot. I dislike the use of pop and rock songs in movies in almost any case. And after being mature not to in the last 2 movies, I was also bummed that they used them in TS3. Just throwing that out there.

#140

About the 70s songs, two things. the first one is just a question, what was the other song? I remember the one where Barbie and ken meet, but what was the other? I know they used a different song during the trailers, but that wasn’t in the final movie so Im just not sure what the other one is we’re talking about.

2, does it really count as pop culture if the song or songs in question was already dated from the get go? The pop in pop song implies its popular. How is a 70s song like that still considered popular? The whole point was to make that meeting cheesy, like Barbie and Ken themselves. Its purposely dated for effect. Not the same thing as using a song that’s popular now, then in a few years you cringe because you could tell they were just trying to be hip.